Why anti-theism is a joke.

[Kilgore Trout]

I suppose we all see the monsters-under-the-bed that we expect to see. This is why I use the space underneath my bed for storage.

 

[Quagmire]

I suppose we all see the monsters-under-the-bed that we expect to see. This is why I use the space underneath my bed for storage.

Then again, a lot of people just lie there with the covers pulled over their heads.

 

[Sententia]

What you're doing in this thread that I'm objecting to is this: this thread was intended to talk about anti-theism, specifically the way it manifests itself here. There are literally thousands of threads in this place that bash religion and/or theism to one degree or another, but for some reason it seems like at least half of the people posting in this one want to change it into yet another one of those.

My reply was after reading the OP. The title is why is anti-theism a joke and is presented as a generalization that anti-theists are irrationally attacking all religions. I tried to clarify that even men perceived to be vehement demons by the religious have very specific arguments against theism. I asked to focus on specific points of the arguments as that is much easier to discuss when compared with defending a generalized attack on anti-theism. Declaring all anti-theist arguments are a joke without understanding the arguments is unproductive.

One of the listed arguments I posted by Dawkin's was the idea that faith can easily lead to evil as it requires no justification or examination. Its one anti-theist claim that can be discussed for why one would see the concept of faith as a good thing and why others clearly see it as an evil thing. It is by definition a firm belief in something for which there is no proof and to then teach that it also is a virtue and that it should be strong and unwavering seems to be a subject that people are strongly opinionated on and debating it might expand the awareness of both parties to mutual benefit.

In other words, pretty obviously in a lot of people's eyes, this place is supposed to be about bashing and bagging on religion now. Period. I'm sure a lot of the people in here have their own private mission statement to that effect (in fact I know they do). Criticizing anything contrary to that is, it seems, the new taboo.

I don't see this forum that way but if you do is it perhaps caused because there are many more atheists here then theists? Do you keep demographics data for your current active participants? (In the last 30 days the majority of time spent on the forums was done by Theists and the Majority of the content was posted by atheists etc etc... The overall tone was abusive with deleted posts up 20%, 14 temporary bans issued and 2 permanent bans... etc etc That kind of thing?) (Empirical research?)

See what my objection is now? This thread ( as far as I could gather from the OP and the resulting dialogue) was supposed to be a critique of anti-theism. And yet, like I said, at least half the people in here, and I'm sorry but including you, are using it to bash religion/theism.

If its a critique of anti-theism then one should understand what it is they are critiquing. I may have mentioned that. :yes:

Generalizing all anti-theistic arguments, calling the entire set of arguments a joke without knowing or understanding them is something you would be against if it was a group of theists bashing atheists?

You are not using this thread to attack any specifics of the argument but seem to be using it to express your disappointment with the latest content on the forums and the overall attitude. I don't have control over the actions of others but rather just my own. I have explained my posts in this thread but I guess I failed to grasp the concept that you are probably a better judge of my intentions than I am. :sarcastic I think you are generalizing the anti-theistic position and confusing it with emotional backlash some atheists experience towards their old religion as they leave that religion and way of life and who are emotionally rebuilding their very understanding of the world without the foundational beliefs their old religion provided. (Which is usually more about emotion)

To a much greater extent than I would like to, yes.

If this is as good as this place ever gets? No.

Well thanks, Sententia. And I'm sorry if I came off as hostile with you, but this thread in general is summing up a lot of things for me and showing me outright that a lot of the suspicians I've been having about what's wrong with this place for some time now, and why, were justified.

This is fairly fallacious reasoning. You can't judge this entire forum from merely this thread which is the implication when you state that this thread is confirming your suspicions. (Hasty generalization?)

Among those:

---we've let a lot of people with personal agendas that run directly counter to the mission statement establish themselves here.

Is it taboo to moderate them? I am not sure what their personal agendas would be or their purpose... What do you think their motivation is?

---very few of the religious people or theists here are willing to stick up for themselves in any sort of constructive way.

Why do you think that is? I have debated a few theists with very strong opinions who stick up for themselves so I don't draw the same conclusion.

 

[Quagmire]

This is fairly fallacious reasoning. You can't judge this entire forum from merely this thread which is the implication when you state that this thread is confirming your suspicions. (Hasty generalization?)

Are you kidding me? Do you consider an opinion based on literally thousands of hours of participation over the space of 4 years by someone who watches and sees every aspect of what's going in here including what most members don't get to see, or don't have any reason to look at, a "hasty generalzation"?

I'm sorry, but that statement is beyond asinine.

Sorry, but if I say "the sky is blue" and the person I'm talking to hears "the sky is made out of blueberries" I'm not going to waste too much time or effort pointing at the sky and trying to get them to look at it (you would probably just think I was flipping you off anyway).

 

[Sententia]

Are you kidding me? Do you consider an opinion based on literally thousands of hours of participation over the space of 4 years by someone who watches and sees every aspect of what's going in here including what most members don't get to see, or don't have any reason to look at, a "hasty generalzation"?

I'm sorry, but that statement is beyond asinine.

Sorry, but if I say "the sky is blue" and the person I'm talking to hears "the sky is made out of blueberries" I'm not going to waste too much time or effort pointing at the sky and trying to get them to look at it (you would probably just think I was flipping you off anyway).

The implication you made with the words you chose seemed to imply this thread had some magical ability to sum up the suspicions you formed.

Well thanks, Sententia. And I'm sorry if I came off as hostile with you, but this thread in general is summing up a lot of things for me and showing me outright that a lot of the suspicians I've been having about what's wrong with this place for some time now, and why, were justified.

In no way did I mean to imply you don't see more RF data than I do and thought perhaps you had chosen a poor choice of words to describe what you meant. Not being a mind reader though it was perhaps in the realm of possibility that you were about to whip out the white board and correlate your four years of experience here in some genius fashion with this very thread and uncover some new science of correlation.

Your reply seems to imply that I wouldn't know you can see more data here at RF then I can. Oddly in the very post you are quoting I ask you a question regarding what empirical data you may get to see that the rest of us are not privy too and that would seem to imply I think there is a lot more you see that I do not.

I didn't just take two sentences from your post and reply to it as I wanted to understand what it was you were saying and I replied to every portion of your post to clearly represent what I was thinking as I read your post.

It would probably be easier just to take two sentences of a post and reply with some reactionary response which doesn't address any of the person's posts, insults the intelligence of the person, questions their ability to reason and then just walk away. :help:

 

[Quagmire]

*points to the sky*

 

[Sententia]

*points to the sky*

Sticking to personal attacks and insulting me. You have been quite self-righteous in your responses to me. You began your response to me in this thread with a personal attack on me and then you quoted the mission statement of this website which you reveal by our brief exchanges in this thread to be unimportant to you.

Mission Statement As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.

 

[Quagmire]

Sticking to personal attacks and insulting me. You have been quite self-righteous in your responses to me. You began your response to me in this thread with a personal attack on me and then you quoted the mission statement of this website which you reveal by our brief exchanges in this thread to be unimportant to you.

Like I said:

(you would probably just think I was flipping you off anyway).

 

[Sententia]

Like I said:

You just can't get over yourself? You never addressed any part of my argument or explained yourself in any way. You are simply attacking me. (Me personally and not my arguments.)

I spend entire posts off subject asking you to stop being an *** and stay on topic and you laugh at and insult me while claiming you care at all about the mission statement which you quoted to me twice.

If I share an opinion contrary to yours or don't think in the same fashion do you feel I deserve your contempt and hostility? You have insulted me on multiple levels while I have been nothing but patient and calmly explained my point of view to you.

 

[Quagmire]

You just can't get over yourself?

Ironic.

You never addressed any part of my argument

And I wont as long as you keep trying to make yourself the topic.

 

[freethinker44]

I've noticed many hear love to question religion and criticize it. And I will say some beliefs need questioned and criticized.

I have yet to find a religion that doesn't deserve to be criticized. They are all equally ridiculous to me. It appears that you think it is ok to criticize religions that are absurd to you but not religions that you think are OK. The universe wasn't created just for you, and in fact, NO ONE is uniquely special. The word "faith" is used in religious beliefs for a reason. At some level, people know that these beliefs are absurd and it is kind of presumptuous for people to expect absurd beliefs to be accepted without criticism.


EDIT: I didn't realize this post was this old but I haven't seen it until now so sorry for the late reply.

 

[Quagmire]

I have yet to find a religion that doesn't deserve to be criticized. They are all equally ridiculous to me.

Then why did you join a forum that's specifically designed to discuss, compare and debate religion?

When we say "debate religion" that's intended to mean debating the tenets thereof, interpretations thereof, issues concerning the history and applications thereof.

Not it's right to exist.

 

[Copernicus]

You just can't get over yourself? You never addressed any part of my argument or explained yourself in any way. You are simply attacking me. (Me personally and not my arguments.)

I spend entire posts off subject asking you to stop being an *** and stay on topic and you laugh at and insult me while claiming you care at all about the mission statement which you quoted to me twice.

If I share an opinion contrary to yours or don't think in the same fashion do you feel I deserve your contempt and hostility? You have insulted me on multiple levels while I have been nothing but patient and calmly explained my point of view to you.

Sententia, Quag likes to engage in a lot of smack talk. Given how open and well-run this board seems to be, you would expect a more tolerant posting style from him, but that's just the way he is. Try not to let it get to you, or all you will end up doing is talking about his attitude rather than the discussion topic.

I am finding myself very much in agreement with your earlier remarks. I do think that religious proselytizers are not really trying so much to comfort you with those remarks as themselves. Death makes everyone nervous. We all face it. If you are frightened, then the most natural way to deal with the fear is to project your method for coping with fear onto others. Atheists cannot relate to those methods, so the attempts of theists to comfort them in personal crises like this can actually backfire. It is, in effect, saying that the only way to cope with the pain is to believe in something that you find impossible to believe in.

 

[Quagmire]

Sententia, Quag likes to engage in a lot of smack talk. Given how open and well-run this board seems to be, you would expect a more tolerant posting style from him, but that's just the way he is. Try not to let it get to you, or all you will end up doing is talking about his attitude rather than the discussion topic.

the only thing worse than being talked about....



edit: "...is not being talked about"
(for anybody who didnt get the Oscar Wilde quote)

 

[atanu]

I do think that religious proselytizers are not really trying so much to comfort you with those remarks as themselves.

This applies both ways. No one sure of one's peace will go and make hit and run posts comprised of pure generalised statements, distorting words used by opponents, and demonstrating starkly that such posters themselves hold presumptous faith that they are the only one's capable of rationality.

I have been an atheist all life and have often been very generous with superficial generalizations myself. When I examine some of those generalizations, i find that i held a belief that theism was pure faith (devoid of any basis) and the anti-theism was pure rationality. Only when i started examining the source of my own belief that i was being rational, did i stumble upon the fact that i had not any ownership over my own life and intelligence. So, I do not accept that theism is mere faith and atheism is pure rationality. In fact, i will say that most anti theists have not examined their own existence.

Few posts that have been pointed out by Quagmire are indeed conglomeration of statements of opinions. Those posts starkly demostrate that anti-theism in more cases than not is venting of unasked for opinion -- an act the poter is blaming the theist of . To insist that an administrator should not point out such posts is unreasonable, IMO. His pointing out posts, which are nothing but hit and run statements, will do service to those posters. :yes:

Sorry for the rambling.

 

[atanu]

the only thing worse than being talked about....

edit: "...is not being talked about"
(for anybody who didnt get the Oscar Wilde quote)

Ya. This is more pervasive than fear of death Copernicus talked about.

 

[atanu]

I have yet to find a religion that doesn't deserve to be criticized.

BTW, have we found anything, including ourselves, that doesn't deserve severe reprimand?

 

[MataM]

See what I'm saying guys? Posts like this one are exactly what I'm talking about. :yes:

This poster comes into a thread that's supposed to be a critique of anti-thiesm, goes "LALALALALA--I don't care what this threads supposed to be about but here's a ridiculously shallow and uninformed generalization about religion...."

Oh, but I'm not trying to annoy you, MataM.

Have a nice day...

If you had taken the time to fully read the first post which sets the context for the entire thread I think you would have found " So instead of criticizing religion, which is a very broad term and no mater how much you wish it could cannot be disproven entirely, why not focus on the real problem which is people? "

and thus the methodology utilized by the ignorant propagates hate e.t.c. and thus information is the key to peace, as peace can not be achieved by force only that of understanding, so with regards to childish copy cat cognitive perceptions I was trying to clarify in case misinterpretation occurred. Thus not being funny time well spent in reading is time well earned in having knowledge.

Have a nice day.

 

[Breathe]

If you had taken the time to fully read the first post which sets the context for the entire thread I think you would have found

Let me just stop you there.

You come in 25 pages and 241 posts into a discussion, saying, in effect, "religion is made up and imaginative and they don't have a clue, and they're playing in imagination land".

I think Quagmire's response is a pretty valid one. Instead of claiming that he has not read the first post and that he is doing "childish copy cat cognitive perceptions", it would be beneficial if you explained yourself better. So far I've not seen any reason to think that his view is incorrect.

So please, enlighten me.

 

[blackout]

Anti-theism is a tiresome bore.

Go and DO something pro.
For yourSelf.
You've got a short life,
and one day the human race,
and this entire planet
will be gone, you know?

People will do their thing,
live their lives the way they want
and in the end
you will have only WASTED the TIME of your own SENTIENCE
on vain and futile combatance
with other people's short lived psyche's.
How stupid is that?