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Why Abraham?
- Thread starter Epic Beard Man
- Start date
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You clearly don't know what a fact is.
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Genesis 15:1, KJV
Nothing about "God" in this verse or any other from the chapter.
sooda
Veteran Member
What wordplay? There were NO Chaldeans at the time. Urfa is near Haran. If Abraham was from there he would have been a north coast Canaanite.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
LORD or Lord God are just two of many different names of God in Scripture. Feigning ignorance, or being ignorant, of that doesn't change the fact that God is found throughout (Gen. 15).
Good-Ole-Rebel
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, they're not one and the same, it's an artifact of translation. YHWH is a proper name, but Elohim is plural.
sooda
Veteran Member
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
As I said, many names of God in the Bible. All speak to God. And God is found throughout (Gen. 15).
Good-Ole-Rebel
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm speaking only for myself in answering this.
What made you think you were wrong? What changed your mind? After all, if the God of Abraham is actually the One True God, and you believe in God, then you are believing in the God of Abraham. That would be especially true if you actually say you believe in the God of Abraham. Did someone say you didn't believe in the God of Abraham and convince you otherwise?
I guess the way that I see it is that there is just one God, the Creator. Sure he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But he is also the God of the entire world. I don't think he is that picky about what name we call him. Abraham called him God Almighty. There are many, many other names like that. There is one other especially holy name that Jews knew him by, but its pronunication is forgotten. The word for God is different in different languages, so if, for example, one addressed him as Allah, (Arabaic for God) I don't think that would matter any more than addressing him as Dios (Spanish). In fact, I would go so far as to say that giving him a completely different name wouldn't be objectionable to him. Any prayer directed to him from the heart he will hear.
So what made Abraham so important? I would like to tell you two stories that set Abraham apart from all others of his age.
1. Abraham was monotheistic.
Set aside scholarly theories that Abraham was more likely henatheistic. We are talking about the Abraham of the story. Here is the story. Abraham as a child worked in his father's idol shop. One day his father went away and left Abraham to mind the store. A woman came in with an offering for the idols. Abraham smashed all the idols except the largest one. Into the hand of the the one surviving idol he put a big stick. Soon his father returned and was aghast. "What happened? Who did this?" Abraham pointed to the idol with the stick and said, "A woman came in with an offering. The idols argued over who would eat it first. The big idol took a stick and smashed all the other idols." The father said, "Nonsense! Idols don't have this kind of knowledge. They are just wood and stone." And Abraham replied, "You acknowledge this, and yet you worship them."
When Judaism embraced ethical monotheism, it was a paradigm shift for the entire world. Before this, morality was relative. You had your gods and I had my gods or maybe we could even borrow gods from each other, and what was right and wrong were pretty much whatever we figured out on our own, and varied from person to person, and there was no objective standard to say what was absolutely right, because there was no objective being overseeing it all, only gods that would argue with one another. With ethical monotheism, a judgmental God decided what was right and wrong for everyone. Suddenly everyone was accountable. You might say the Jewish God was a royal pain in the tuchas for the world. And yet, ethical monotheism has allowed for the evolution of a greater, higher morality than the world has known before -- the abolition of slavery, the freedom of women, the rights of children... its effects are STILL unfolding.
2. Abraham walked before God.
In the Torah it is written that Noah walked with God, but later it is written that Abraham walked before God. What does this mean? Noah was righteous, and Abraham was righteous, but Abraham did something that Noah didn't do. Nowhere does Noah plea with God for the sake of humanity. He does not argue with God about the impending judgment. He simply obeys. He has no compassion. But when Abraham is told of the coming judgment of Sodom, he argues with God. He believes that innocents will die, and their deaths will be unjust and he feels compassion. He barters God all the way down to saving Sodom if there are as few as 10 righteous.
To obey God is to walk with God. But to try to stand up on our own moral two feet and take our own first baby steps, even if we fall, this is pleasing to God. It is children he wants, not robots. To grow in our moral sentience, even if it means the chutzpah of arguing with God like a teenager, is walking before God. It is not the same as rebelling against God. You don't hear any disrespect coming out of Abraham's mouth. You don't see him walking away in disgust. Indeed, kind of get the impression that he knows very well he is arguing with a hungry tiger and could get eaten at any moment!!!! And indeed, even though God acquiesces, Abraham ultimately does not change God's perfect mind, as there were not 10 righteous in all of Sodom. So then, what is the point of the story?? The point is the spiritual immensity of Abraham. If you have ever been a parent having your first ethical discussion with your child, you can imagine the pride God must have felt.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Saying it doesn't make it true. You've got no evidence for Genesis 15.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
And yet you can't post anything from Genesis 15 to support that.
You're arguing from your interpretation, not from the text.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but facts are things that other people can verity, not you religious imaginings.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Obviously, you fail.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
(Gen. 15:1) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saing, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
(Gen. 15:2) And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
(Gen. 15:3) And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
(Gen. 15:4) And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
(Gen. 15:5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
(Gen. 15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen. 15:7) And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
(Gen. 15:8) And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
(Gen. 15:9) And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
(Gen. 15:10-12) And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
(Gen. 15:13) And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
(Gen. 15:14) And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
(Gen. 15:15-17) And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
(Gen. 15:18) In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unot thy seed Have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the rivewr Euphrates:
(Gen. 15:19-21)The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.
It is clear that no matter which name is given God, LORD or Lord God, it is the same God.
What I have said is based on me being a Christian and believing that the Bible is the Word of God both Old and New Testaments.
Good-Ole-Rebel
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
In this verse the word "God" is an artifact of translation. The Hebrew word Elohim or its variants which are translated as "God" are not present here.
ויאמר אברם אדני יהוה
Said Abram, Lord YHWH
Same here.
ויאמר אדני יהוה
He said Lord YHWH
No, it isn't clear. "God" is typically a translation of a plural Hebrew word, but YHWH is the proper name of a singular deity.
Like I said, what you're saying about Genesis 15 isn't based on facts. The written word was corrupted by the scribes, which is arguably the reason why the old covenant was broken.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
You haven't proved anything. We are arguing over God being in (Gen. 15). In post #(184) you said God was no where in (Gen. 15). And as anyone can see when reading (Gen. 15) God is throughout it.
No, God is not an 'artifact in translation' in (Gen. 15). Different names are used of God throughout the Scripture. In (15:2) Adonai is used. In (15:1,4) Jehovah is used.
Jehovah is speaking in (Gen. 15:1,4). Abram is responding to Him calling Him Adonai. Same God.
Elohim, the plural form of God, is the same God as Jehovah, the singular. (Deut. 6:4) "Hear O , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Or the Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. Same God.
So, again, God is found throughout (Gen. 15). The only one attempting to corrupt the text is you.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
I've show that the language used in Genesis 15 doesn't translate to "God", contrary to what you claimed as a matter of fact.
You're also ignoring the point that Elohim is a plural word which, linguistically, can not represent a singular being like YHWH.