Who is the true church?

[Katzpur]

If I don't know what the ordinances are that are so secret/sacred that they cannot be talked about, how can I possibly know what to ask?

Sooooo.... here's what I'll ask ~ which ordinances (in general for now) are too sacred to talk about or describe and why are non mormons not allowed to know about them?

Only those that are received in the Temple. The endowment is the primary one. It involves a series of promises and commitments made to God. We believe that we will be blessed by living up to these commitments.

Other ordinances (those we are free to discuss with anyone) include baptism, confirmation, the "Sacrament" (known by most Christians as the Lord's Supper, Eurcharist, or Communion), and the annointing of the sick. Non-members of our Church are also free to witness these, and may even receive the ordinance of annointing if they are sick and call upon an LDS priesthood holder.

In the ancient (i.e. first century) Church, there were certain esoteric rites. Not all Christians were permitted to take part in these. A person had to have reached a certain level of spiritual maturity in order to be properly prepared to go on to the next level. For obvious reasons, these are not discussed in the Bible, but if you were to do some research on the subject, you'd discover that I know what I'm talking about. I sort of think of the temple as being a sort of spiritual institution of higher learning. Just as a fourth-grader wouldn't get much out of attending a college chemistry class, we have to wait until we are ready to make the commitments we make in the temple to be allowed to gain the knowledge we gain there.

I hope I've sort of answered your question. I really don't want to end up going off-topic, and we've already sort of veered off-course. But if you want to start a thread on the LDS sub-forum, feel free to do so and we'll respond to the degree that we feel we can.

Kathryn

 

[Snowbear]

The ordiances of the endowment, and marriage sealing. I know those are two very important ones.

What is the endowment?

The marriage sealing and (I think?) what it's for has been mentioned on this site before, though the actual ritual has not. Though I'm curious about the actual ritual, that really doesn't matter so much to me. What I'm interested in is the various practices and why they are so important..... and why (in the LDS doctrine) they are such a necessary part of salvation.

I think why non-mormons are not allowed to know about them, is because, like I said before, people might try to take them and make a mockery of them. That's what they tried to do with the missing pages of the Book of Mormon.

Too bad. Not all non-mormons look to mock that which is not their belief. Some of us just want to know more about stuff.

They wanted to take something sacred and holy and make a mockery of them, that's why only members who are temple-worthy(interviewed by bishop and stake president), are allowed to enter into the temple.

I'll never be 'temple-worthy, but I actually have been inside of a mormon temple
Somehow I actually managed to not mock anything or anyone while I was in there.....

You wouldn't want to make a mockery of something holy would you?

Uh.... no, I would not. That 'you' (as in your church) are assuming I would if you tell me about your religious rituals seems strange to me. It gives the perception that you are ashamed or afraid to have your practices scrutinized or even challenged by folks who are not "worthy" in the eyes of your leadership. Seems pretty judgemental (again... to me).

 

[Bishka]

What is the endowment? ).

The endowment is sort of hard to explain if you have done it, I think I'll have to rely on others to sort of explain this one, it's unexplainable from my point of view.

What I'm interested in is the various practices and why they are so important..... and why (in the LDS doctrine) they are such a necessary part of salvation.

They are so important to us, because we believe that without these we cannot reach the Celestial Kingdom, and they are necessary to get there.

Too bad. Not all non-mormons look to mock that which is not their belief. Some of us just want to know more about stuff..

I know, but there will always be those who do, so why make the exception for a small few? Why not just keep in sacred and holy. No offense.

I'll never be 'temple-worthy, but I actually have been inside of a mormon temple
Somehow I actually managed to not mock anything or anyone while I was in there.....
Uh.... no, I would not. That 'you' (as in your church) are assuming I would if you tell me about your religious rituals seems strange to me. It gives the perception that you are ashamed or afraid to have your practices scrutinized or even challenged by folks who are not "worthy" in the eyes of your leadership. Seems pretty judgemental (again... to me).

It's not that we are ashamed or afraid in any way, are you kidding me, I am in no way ashamed to say I've taken part in the endowment or the marriage sealing, we aren't being judgemental, we are just protecting what we believe to be sacred and holy.

 

[Snowbear]

I hope I've sort of answered your question. I really don't want to end up going off-topic, and we've already sort of veered off-course.

Sorry. Just a question that came up from reading this thread.

But if you want to start a thread on the LDS sub-forum, feel free to do so and we'll respond to the degree that we feel we can.

No thanks. If you guys don't wanna answer my questions when I ask 'em here, I'm not gonna start a whole new thread.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just tend to read more than I post, so if a question comes up in the course of my reading I will ask it in the thread that brought up the question. If you think it's too off-topic for said thread... well.... you're a mod... I assume you have the power to split it off into a new thread.

 

[wmam]

Be content with self-ordained ignorance. I personally can't see how a Father would not even let his children make mistakes, as long as they are happy and they aren't hurting people, that seems to be more important to a benevolent and loving God. But then, that is my opinion and you will disagree, I would think.

I am very content and I do agree that YAH does allow us to make mistakes. We have freedom of choice. Just remember the responsibility for those choices. If by your choice you commit sin then you will have to pay for that sin if you do not truly repent. that is love of the Father to His child to show them the correct and True path. To allow the child to fall to its own destruction would not be love.

 

[wmam]

We don't believe that people must be "saved".

I agree.......... Though, I am happy to know that I am.

 

[Bishka]

I agree.......... Though, I am happy to know that I am.

Could you explain that to me. That you don't agree people should be save, but you are happy that you are?

 

[Snowbear]

They are so important to us, because we believe that without these we cannot reach the Celestial Kingdom, and they are necessary to get there.

I realize that. What I am asking is why you need to do these things to be 'saved.'
You can see by my profile that I call myself Christian. My question comes from my own belief that Jesus tells us the only way to savation is through Him.... that faith in Him is what is necessary for salvation, not works or money or rituals. I have seen many, many people who go through the rites of their various churches and who profess to be as sinless as possible and pay their tithes and go through the motions, yet who do not believe that Christ is their savior. I'm not in any way saying that this is what you do, just asking why, in your belief system, a person cannot enter the Kingdon unless these ordinances/rites have been performed.

I know, but there will always be those who do, so why make the exception for a small few? Why not just keep in sacred and holy. No offense.

I'm hard to actually offend, so none taken. To answer the question with questions ~ why not make the exception to those who are seeking answers? Why would educating someone outside of the church detract from the holiness of these rituals?

It's not that we are ashamed or afraid in any way, are you kidding me, I am in no way ashamed to say I've taken part in the endowment or the marriage sealing, we aren't being judgemental, we are just protecting what we believe to be sacred and holy.

No. I'm not kidding. I just don't understand how having 'outsiders' knowing about the rituals detracts from their sacredness or holiness.

 

[wmam]

Could you explain that to me. That you don't agree people should be save, but you are happy that you are?

Ummmm........ You have freedom of choice right? You don't want it then you don't have to get it. I just don't like the outcome of not being it so I am glad that I am. Does that help? If not let me know and I will do my best to try and break it down even further.

 

[Bishka]

I realize that. What I am asking is why you need to do these things to be 'saved.'
You can see by my profile that I call myself Christian. My question comes from my own belief that Jesus tells us the only way to savation is through Him.... that faith in Him is what is necessary for salvation, not works or money or rituals. I have seen many, many people who go through the rites of their various churches and who profess to be as sinless as possible and pay their tithes and go through the motions, yet who do not believe that Christ is their savior. I'm not in any way saying that this is what you do, just asking why, in your belief system, a person cannot enter the Kingdon unless these ordinances/rites have been performed.
I'm hard to actually offend, so none taken. To answer the question with questions ~ why not make the exception to those who are seeking answers? Why would educating someone outside of the church detract from the holiness of these rituals?
No. I'm not kidding. I just don't understand how having 'outsiders' knowing about the rituals detracts from their sacredness or holiness.

We can't really tell you why, at least from my understanding, because that is learned in the temple. Why, because those who are seeking answers are good, but Satan is always on the lookout, he'd tempt them, he'd try to get them to twist it and have others twist it. I think the other LDS people can answer better then I, so I hope some of them post soon. I'm doing the best I can, but I still don't know everything.

 

[wmam]

My question comes from my own belief that Jesus tells us the only way to savation is through Him.... that faith in Him is what is necessary for salvation, not works or money or rituals.

My question would have to be if faith is all then why is it written also.......

KJV.........

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I am also just trying to understand.

 

[Buttons*]

no actually there doesn't have to
but as an idolized place of beliefs yes it is needed
and by using binary latter day saints=666
any further questions?

Yes, do you need attention that badly?

 

[wmam]

Ummmm........ You have freedom of choice right? You don't want it then you don't have to get it. I just don't like the outcome of not being it so I am glad that I am. Does that help? If not let me know and I will do my best to try and break it down even further.

I have to back up here as I just caught the wording that you used. You used the word "should" where the other poster used the word "must". I have to say that I believe that it would be nice to see that all people "could" be saved, therefore "should" try, but its not a must being that they have that choice.

 

[Katzpur]

I realize that. What I am asking is why you need to do these things to be 'saved.'
You can see by my profile that I call myself Christian. My question comes from my own belief that Jesus tells us the only way to savation is through Him.... that faith in Him is what is necessary for salvation, not works or money or rituals. I have seen many, many people who go through the rites of their various churches and who profess to be as sinless as possible and pay their tithes and go through the motions, yet who do not believe that Christ is their savior. I'm not in any way saying that this is what you do, just asking why, in your belief system, a person cannot enter the Kingdon unless these ordinances/rites have been performed.

I guess the answer is "because God said so." Jesus was pretty darned clear that baptism was required for salvation. People can do their best to interpret His words to mean something else, but He said that without baptism, one cannot be saved. So, as much as we may wonder why being "born of water" is so critical to our salvation, I guess it's just a matter of obedience. Also, in order to give a complete answer, I'd probably have to get into yet another discussion about what it actually means to be "saved," because I don't believe that all unbaptized people will go to hell.

Why would educating someone outside of the church detract from the holiness of these rituals? No. I'm not kidding. I just don't understand how having 'outsiders' knowing about the rituals detracts from their sacredness or holiness.

For the reasons I already tried to explain. Certain things are not meaningful without a prior level of knowledge. God gives us information line upon line, precept upon precept. As we become ready for additional knowledge, we can receive it. I couldn't tell you anything about the endowment that would be meaningful to you.

I'm curious as to which temple you were in. You said something about managing not to knock anybody or anything while you were in there. I appreciate that, but I'm trying to figure out what you could possibly have found to mock in the first place.

 

[Snowbear]

Certain things are not meaningful without a prior level of knowledge. God gives us information line upon line, precept upon precept. As we become ready for additional knowledge, we can receive it.

Huh. Need to have prior knowledge to be educated about these things, but those in the know are not willing to teach it. Ah well..... guess I'll just have to stay ignorant and get what information I can off those 'anti-mormon' websites that profess they know about these things.

For the reasons I already tried to explain. Certain things are not meaningful without a prior level of knowledge. God gives us information line upon line, precept upon precept. As we become ready for additional knowledge, we can receive it. I couldn't tell you anything about the endowment that would be meaningful to you.

Yeah.... I guess being stewpid does have it's disadvantages.

I'm curious as to which temple you were in.

Anchorage

You said something about managing not to knock anybody or anything while you were in there.

No. I said mock, not knock.

I appreciate that, but I'm trying to figure out what you could possibly have found to mock in the first place.

My statement was in reference to the poster who said certain rituals could not be talked about because folks like me tend to make mockery of them. I was simply stating I didn't mock what I saw. You seem to be assuming I was looking for something to mock. I was not. I'm simply asking questions about some of your beliefs for my own education. Since you are unwillinging to educate me, I'll just stop asking. No big deal.

Thanks anyhow.

 

[Bishka]

Huh. Need to have prior knowledge to be educated about these things, but those in the know are not willing to teach it. Ah well..... guess I'll just have to stay ignorant and get what information I can off those 'anti-mormon' websites that profess they know about these things.
Yeah.... I guess being stewpid does have it's disadvantages.
Anchorage
No. I said mock, not knock.
My statement was in reference to the poster who said certain rituals could not be talked about because folks like me tend to make mockery of them. I was simply stating I didn't mock what I saw. You seem to be assuming I was looking for something to mock. I was not. I'm simply asking questions about some of your beliefs for my own education. Since you are unwillinging to educate me, I'll just stop asking. No big deal.

Thanks anyhow.

I didn't mean, folks like you tend to make a mockery of them, if you read what I posted you would understand why, but you dont' seem open to what we have said to you.

 

[Katzpur]

Huh. Need to have prior knowledge to be educated about these things, but those in the know are not willing to teach it. Ah well..... guess I'll just have to stay ignorant and get what information I can off those 'anti-mormon' websites that profess they know about these things.

Well, that's not your only option, but if you'd rather believe what you read on the anti-Mormon websites, I don't think there's really much I can do about it.

Yeah.... I guess being stewpid does have it's disadvantages.

Your words, not mine. Sorry you feel that way. It has never been my intention to imply that you were stupid.

Since you are unwillinging to educate me, I'll just stop asking. No big deal.

I'm sorry, but I am only keeping a promise I made to God. Please try to understand that and not be so critical of me. I can't imagine why you think it would be right for me to break it.

Kathryn

 

[Bishka]

Well, that's not your only option, but if you'd rather believe what you read on the anti-Mormon websites, I don't think there's really much I can do about it.

Your words, not mine. Sorry you feel that way. It has never been my intention to imply that you were stupid.

I'm sorry, but I am only keeping a promise I made to God. Please try to understand that and not be so critical of me. I can't imagine why you think it would be right for me to break it.

Kathryn

Right on Kathryn.

 

[Snowbear]

Well, that's not your only option, but if you'd rather believe what you read on the anti-Mormon websites, I don't think there's really much I can do about it.

The other option is asking those who know the answers. Which I have done.

Your words, not mine. Sorry you feel that way. It has never been my intention to imply that you were stupid.

I didn't say you did. You did say I needed prior knowledge, which I don't have and have pretty limited options to get.

I'm sorry, but I am only keeping a promise I made to God. Please try to understand that and not be so critical of me. I can't imagine why you think it would be right for me to break it.

I'm not criticizing you. If you want to take it that way, that's up to you. As I said - I am (was) simply asking questions about some of your beliefs for my own education. Since you are unwillinging to educate me, I'll just stop asking. No big deal. Seems to me that to stop asking IS respecting your beliefs. Again, if you take that as criticism... well.... all I can say is sorry for my crappy communication skills.

 

[Bishka]

The other option is asking those who know the answers. Which I have done.
I didn't say you did. You did say I needed prior knowledge, which I don't have and have pretty limited options to get.
I'm not criticizing you. If you want to take it that way, that's up to you. As I said - I am (was) simply asking questions about some of your beliefs for my own education. Since you are unwillinging to educate me, I'll just stop asking. No big deal. Seems to me that to stop asking IS respecting your beliefs. Again, if you take that as criticism... well.... all I can say is sorry for my crappy communication skills.

You obviously are very stubborn and aren't seeing what we are saying. This is SACRED to us, it's something that we dont' want become unsacred in anyway. I wish I could tell you, I wish you could see, but you shouldn't be so offended when we tell you that we can't.