Who is a Jew - right of return to Israel

[muhammad_isa]

..we should probably acknowledge that Israelis have significant, legitimate concerns about their safety arising from the attitude of neighboring communities..

Of course..
..but wouldn't the Zionists have known that when they decided to make Palestine their home ..it is primarily a region surrounded by Arabs.
..and then when the British pulled out due to bankruptcy, they declared a state of Israel.
It's all pollitcal, in any case .. we all reap what we sow in the long run.

 

[LuisDantas]

Of course..
..but wouldn't the Zionists have known that when they decided to make Palestine their home ..it is primarily a region surrounded by Arabs.
..and then when the British pulled out due to bankruptcy, they declared a state of Israel.
It's all pollitcal, in any case .. we all reap what we sow in the long run.

For the sake of discussion, let's grant that these are accurately and sufficiently described, legitimate and relevant factors for a moment.

What do you think follows from that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What do you think follows from that?

Trouble !

 

[sun rise]

..and then when the British pulled out due to bankruptcy, they declared a state of Israel.

The UNITED NATIONS partitioned the land into two nations: Israel and Palestine. The Arabs attacked to destroy Israel and the rest is history.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The UNITED NATIONS partitioned the land into two nations: Israel and Palestine. The Arabs attacked to destroy Israel and the rest is history.

..but that does not negate what I said..
The state of Israel was not declared by the UN.

 

[Left Coast]

..but that does not negate what I said..
The state of Israel was not declared by the UN.

Do you support the right of Israel to exist? Do you support a two state solution?

 

[LuisDantas]

Maybe me being a Brazilian factors into it, but I honestly do not understand how anyone can see a right to exist for any nation, national territory, national sovereignity or national identity as a real thing. It is just fiction, far as I can see. Political statements that, by definition, are only meaningful as long as enough people agree that they have some form of meaning.

There are people, there is territory, there is political autonomy (which is pretty hard to delimit). And there are several layers of fiction that are usually applied liberally over those.

Maybe I would feel differently were I, say, an Irishman going back several generations. I honestly don't know. I don't even know which nationalities my great-grandfathers had. I do know that the native communities of every single city I have ever lived in have pretty much been decimated by.. I think the favored word is "expatriates" - and that the community around me tends to disregard any native ancestry that we might have.

Maybe someone brighter than me can see some sort of path ahead that somehow can work with claims of national identity for Palestinians and/or Zionists. Myself, I can't in good faith take either very seriously at all. My very existence owes to the pratical reality of invaders becoming the native people for all pratical purposes.

 

[LuisDantas]

..but that does not negate what I said..
The state of Israel was not declared by the UN.

How is that significant, if true?

 

[sun rise]

The state of Israel was not declared by the UN.

The United Nations approved a plan to partition Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state in 1947, but the Arabs rejected it. Israel

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you support the right of Israel to exist? Do you support a two state solution?

Yes.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..My very existence owes to the pratical reality of invaders becoming the native people for all pratical purposes.

Exactly .. we need to treat all parties on an equal footing.
What has happened, has happened.

Going forward, is about fairness to all.

God favours no particular faction .. He favours righteousness.
..but satan causes enmity and mistrust.
It is not difficult for me to see why.

 

[Harel13]

The Arabs attacked to destroy Israel

As well as deciding (or allowing the neighboring Arab countries to decide for them) not to create Palestine.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As well as deciding (or allowing the neighboring Arab countries to decide for them) not to create Palestine.

How does bickering over past events help any resident of the region today,
in 2022 ?

Sadly, it has gone too far .. Israel has not "won" .. we can only win when we can live in peace.

 

[LuisDantas]

Exactly .. we need to treat all parties on an equal footing.
What has happened, has happened.

Going forward, is about fairness to all.

God favours no particular faction .. He favours righteousness.
..but satan causes enmity and mistrust.
It is not difficult for me to see why.

I don't dwell on expectations about gods nor shaitans, however.

I don't think anyone should.

There is no upside to doing such a thing, not least because so often both sides so easily convince themselves to be allied to god and opposed to its enemies.

Leaving that aside, what would be equal footing here? Perhaps an agreement to refuse political plataforms that promise to destroy the other side for a start?

Hamas - Wikipedia

 

[Harel13]

How does bickering over past events help any resident of the region today,
in 2022 ?

Lying about the past isn't helpful either.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't dwell on expectations about gods nor shaitans, however.

I don't think anyone should.

There is no upside to doing such a thing, not least because so often both sides so easily convince themselves to be allied to god and opposed to its enemies..

Yes .. that is a big part of the issue though .. a state that is founded on a belief that "the Holy Land" belongs to them.

Leaving that aside, what would be equal footing here? Perhaps an agreement to refuse political plataforms that promise to destroy the other side for a start?
Hamas - Wikipedia

I won't comment on that, other than saying if a community becomes imprisoned and oppressed for some reason, they will act fiercely.

One can say that they brought it upon themselves, but again, how does that solve anything? It doesn't !

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes .. that is a big part of the issue though .. a state that is founded on a belief that "the Holy Land" belongs to them.


I won't comment on that, other than saying if a community becomes imprisoned and oppressed for some reason, they will act fiercely.

One can say that they brought it upon themselves, but again, how does that solve anything? It doesn't !

To the best of my understanding that is at least as true of the Palestinians as of Israel.

 

[sun rise]

Maybe someone brighter than me can see some sort of path ahead that somehow can work with claims of national identity for Palestinians and/or Zionists. Myself, I can't in good faith take either very seriously at all. My very existence owes to the pratical reality of invaders becoming the native people for all pratical purposes.

In the world today, we have a lot of "it's our land" going on - China/India, Russia/Ukraine, Israel and so forth. Where my parents came from, Eastern Europe, had all sorts of different countries claiming territory. And in the US, there's the history of immigrants/invaders/settlers ignoring the rights of the people who lived there.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I didn't dismiss all criticisms of Israeli policies. I pointed out that this particular report is biased, flawed and wrong. And that many governments agree with that assessment. Israel is not an apartheid state. Furthermore the UN repealed its own resolution calling Israel racist and that by extension doesn't practice apartheid. So any "UN human rights expert" that says that it is can go pound sand. As for Europe, they should address their own atrocious record on human rights before opining about others.

Governments are often driven by geopolitical interests, as I said. A lot of them are not going to condemn an ally and potentially lose favorable relations for the sake of the rights of other people. There's a reason most powerful countries are often selective about their stated concern for "human rights," "democracy," etc.

And that ties into your last point about Europe: almost every country on the planet has its own human rights issues, be they past or present, and they have all engaged in selective condemnation of other countries' abuses at one point or another. This is neither new nor surprising, and it's exactly why I'm generally more inclined to trust reports from independent observers and established NGOs over those from politicians and governments whose official stances tend to be driven by self-interest rather than actual concern for human rights or justice.

 

[sun rise]

I won't comment on that, other than saying if a community becomes imprisoned and oppressed for some reason, they will act fiercely.

One can say that they brought it upon themselves, but again, how does that solve anything? It doesn't !

I agree.