Who is a Jew - right of return to Israel

[jbg]

While I have absolutely no doubt that antisemitism motivates the calls to exterminate all Jews or the idea that they are an inherently "treacherous" or otherwise dangerous people, I think there is a lot of valid criticism of Israel and its policies concerning expansion, annexation of Palestinian territories, and refusal to reform said policies.

Also, what's the purpose of putting "Palestinians" in quotation marks? I hope that's not intended to express disbelief in the legitimacy of their very identity or nation.

Prior to about 1964, when Egyptian (and non-Palestinian Yasir Arafat) created the PLO, the term "Arab Refugee" and not "Palestinian" was used. When the Arab Refugee Crisis did not mobilize Western popular and political opinion it was decided, basically, the "national self-determination and liberation" approach was next-up. Israel is about the only country whose legitimacy is questioned. I suspect the real reason is not Israel's "policies concerning expansion, annexation of Palestinian territories" but the fact that it is a Jewish entity. it would be better if Israel's opponents would come out and openly say it.

As far as Palestinians, there is no native Palestinian cuisine. Find me a "Palestinian" restaurant, even in Queens, NYC, which seems to be host to just about every other kind of food. You can't. What are Palestinian national traditions? There are none. Basically, it's an excuse for violence. That's it.

And a two state solution is the ideal one. How are they to achieve one?

I don't see a way to do it, since the Palestinian side won't agree to be disarmed, and won't agree to normal relations with Israel. Only a non-militarized solution, such as was imposed on Japan and Germany post-WWII can work. Israel cannot and will not agree to birth a state devoted from day One to Israel's destruction.

The Jews in Israel were put in a tough position. There was organized violence coming from the Palestinians. Their solution is far from perfect, but until the Palestinians agree that the Jews have a right to live in the region too their hand is forced.

One cannot exile violent Palestinians set on exterminating the Jews. And unless there have been changes I do not know of any Palestinian leaders that are willing to admit that the Jews have a right to live in Israel too.

When under constant internal warfare what else is one to do?

This time, unlike the post above, you nailed it. Why should Israel lay out what it will do when some hypothetical state of affairs, such as Palestinian recognition or the Age of Aquarius happens? So that it is under pressure to commit national hari-kari and trust their fates to the G-ds?

 

[muhammad_isa]

And a two state solution is the ideal one. How are they to achieve one?

It takes two to tango..
I think we see that the parties involved are becoming further apart.

Sadly, what is to be, is to be.
Armageddon is part of mankind's destiny.
We see events unfolding before our eyes.

When the Prophet (peace be with him) was asked about the signs of the Final Hour, one of the signs he mentioned was "when you see the barefoot, naked, destitute shepherds competing in constructing tall buildings.”. When asked to elaborate further, the Prophet said that they are from the Arabs.

For example, the UAE was mostly inhabited by Bedouins just 40 years ago. Now, it is littered with skyscrapers and houses the tallest building in the world.
Rags to Riches: The Bedouin Prophecy — Proving Islam

 

[Debater Slayer]

Prior to about 1964, when Egyptian (and non-Palestinian Yasir Arafat) created the PLO, the term "Arab Refugee" and not "Palestinian" was used. When the Arab Refugee Crisis did not mobilize Western popular and political opinion it was decided, basically, the "national self-determination and liberation" approach was next-up. Israel is about the only country whose legitimacy is questioned. I suspect the real reason is not Israel's "policies concerning expansion, annexation of Palestinian territories" but the fact that it is a Jewish entity. it would be better if Israel's opponents would come out and openly say it.

As far as Palestinians, there is no native Palestinian cuisine. Find me a "Palestinian" restaurant, even in Queens, NYC, which seems to be host to just about every other kind of food. You can't. What are Palestinian national traditions? There are none. Basically, it's an excuse for violence. That's it.

I find much of the above line of thinking to be a non-starter for any kind of negotiation or peace talks to establish a two-state solution. You seem to be not only dismissing valid criticism of Israel as mere antisemitism but also asserting that Palestinians essentially have no national identity and that the very designation of their nationality is just an excuse for violence.

A bridge connects people across two points to each other. If the people at either point refuse to even acknowledge the others as having a valid identity, rights, and concerns, then the bridge can't even be built.

 

[jbg]

I find much of the above line of thinking to be a non-starter for any kind of negotiation or peace talks to establish a two-state solution. You seem to be not only dismissing valid criticism of Israel as mere antisemitism but also asserting that Palestinians essentially have no national identity and that the very designation of their nationality is just an excuse for violence.

A bridge connects people across two points to each other. If the people at either point refuse to even acknowledge the others as having a valid identity, rights, and concerns, then the bridge can't even be built.

That needs to be a two-way street or a two-way bridge, to use your language. Israel has always stood ready and has indeed given land for peace. Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt, for example. Israel withdrew from Gaza. Its thanks for the former was a cold peace; for the latter indescribable violence. Clinton came close to negotiating a two-state solution in 2000, and then Arafat upped his demands to include a "right of return." Why should Israel take tangible risks just to make U.S. State Department types happy?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That needs to be a two-way street or a two-way bridge, to use your language. Israel has always stood ready and has indeed given land for peace. Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt, for example. Israel withdrew from Gaza. Its thanks for the former was a cold peace; for the latter indescribable violence. Clinton came close to negotiating a two-state solution in 2000, and then Arafat upped his demands to include a "right of return." Why should Israel take tangible risks just to make U.S. State Department types happy?

The right of return demand appears to be a result of Arabic bad behavior. The refugees were given no road to citizenship. Even their children are not citizens. This problem would not even exist if Arabic countries that took in refugees treated them appropriately.

 

[Lyndon]

Prior to about 1964, when Egyptian (and non-Palestinian Yasir Arafat) created the PLO, the term "Arab Refugee" and not "Palestinian" was used. When the Arab Refugee Crisis did not mobilize Western popular and political opinion it was decided, basically, the "national self-determination and liberation" approach was next-up. Israel is about the only country whose legitimacy is questioned. I suspect the real reason is not Israel's "policies concerning expansion, annexation of Palestinian territories" but the fact that it is a Jewish entity. it would be better if Israel's opponents would come out and openly say it.

As far as Palestinians, there is no native Palestinian cuisine. Find me a "Palestinian" restaurant, even in Queens, NYC, which seems to be host to just about every other kind of food. You can't. What are Palestinian national traditions? There are none. Basically, it's an excuse for violence. That's it.
I don't see a way to do it, since the Palestinian side won't agree to be disarmed, and won't agree to normal relations with Israel. Only a non-militarized solution, such as was imposed on Japan and Germany post-WWII can work. Israel cannot and will not agree to birth a state devoted from day One to Israel's destruction.
This time, unlike the post above, you nailed it. Why should Israel lay out what it will do when some hypothetical state of affairs, such as Palestinian recognition or the Age of Aquarius happens? So that it is under pressure to commit national hari-kari and trust their fates to the G-ds?

This is the same way the Nazis were talking about the Jews in Germany, the problem in Israel is fascism

 

[jbg]

The right of return demand appears to be a result of Arabic bad behavior. The refugees were given no road to citizenship. Even their children are not citizens. This problem would not even exist if Arabic countries that took in refugees treated them appropriately.

You are 100% right on that. Even if in some earlier period some of them lived in modern Israel, those ancestors forfeited that right by taking flight (did not plan on making a rhyme). They decided to make war. Wars have winners. Wars have losers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Wars have winners. Wars have losers.

..but our permanent abode is with God.
We all have to die and return to God .. money will no longer be a useful currency.
Only our deeds and intentions will matter then.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are 100% right on that. Even if in some earlier period some of them lived in modern Israel, those ancestors forfeited that right by taking flight (did not plan on making a rhyme). They decided to make war. Wars have winners. Wars have losers.

Yes, and no. If they admit that they lost, that the Jews do have a right to a homeland just as they do, then they should be allowed to return. But as long as they keep up the fight they are not in much of a position to demand that they get their old property back. Israel as you pointed out has a history of offering property for peace and keeping their word. What i appears to be the problem is not the Palestinian people, but that of their leadership and the Arab countries that are still trying to use them as a weapon.

 

[jbg]

Israel as you pointed out has a history of offering property for peace and keeping their word. What i appears to be the problem is not the Palestinian people, but that of their leadership and the Arab countries that are still trying to use them as a weapon.

Democracies generally but not always keep the word of previous governments, even if they were in the opposition. Palestinian leaders rarely keep their word. Doctrine is called Tekiya.

 

[sun rise]

I acknowledge that people have been wronged on both sides of the conflict (as occurs in conflicts that seem to be never-ending). As a person who prays, I pray for eventual peace for both sides in the conflict.

Peace requires Israelis to say Shalom Aleichem to Palestinians and for them to reply Wa alaykumu as-salam and for Palestinians to say Assalamualaikum and for Israelis to reply Aleichem Shalom (Peace be unto you. Unto you, Peace) and mean it.

Many years of marriage has taught me that there is no end to finger pointing, blaming and reciting the other's misdeeds except for a willingness to let that all go and work hard to get past that which divides.

 

[Shaul]

Israel is entitled to use whatever criteria it wants but the origin of the current system traces back to nazi criteria. The effort by members of the Israeli government to change that means that Israel is not the same country as it was when I was growing up.

As far as Israel goes:

The comprehensive report, Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime against Humanity, sets out how massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions, and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians are all components of a system which amounts to apartheid under international law. This system is maintained by violations which Amnesty International found to constitute apartheid as a crime against humanity, as defined in the Rome Statute and Apartheid Convention. Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity

The Apartheid Convention is specifically about racism but to me practices of the Israeli government and by settlers match details in that convention and thus the Amnesty report applies

In addition, the military.com article in a post that was removed should be noted by any who care about American tech being transferred to China and Russia Report: Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China.

The origin of the State of Israel's "Right of Return" is not traced to the Nazis. It's origin comes from Theodore Herzl and the World Jewish Congress' of the late nineteenth century which was long before the Nazis.

Amnesty International's report is biased and was rejected as such by the U.S., U.K., French, German and a host of other governments. ISGAP Fellows Reject Antisemitic Tropes in Amnesty Report » ISGAP The report is Jew hating propoganda.

 

[Shaul]

This is the same way the Nazis were talking about the Jews in Germany, the problem in Israel is fascism

No it isn't and Israel is not fascist.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Amnesty International's report is biased and was rejected as such by the U.S., U.K., French, German and a host of other governments. ISGAP Fellows Reject Antisemitic Tropes in Amnesty Report » ISGAP The report is Jew hating propoganda.

Dismissing any examples of highlighting harmful Israeli policies as "Jew-hating propaganda" or "antisemitism" strikes me, yet again, as extremely similar to charges of "Islamophobia" from Islamists when anyone criticizes human rights violations or hateful rhetoric from Islamic countries or preachers.

It doesn't surprise me that politicians and some governments would dismiss such a report if they would have little or no geopolitical or diplomatic gain from acknowledging the validity of at least some of its points. Amnesty is not the only organization to have described Israeli policies as apartheid:

Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert

A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution

Parliamentary question | Israel imposing apartheid policies on Palestinians | E-001475/2022 | European Parliament

 

[Lyndon]

No it isn't and Israel is not fascist.

from what I've seen of your politics on this forum, it supports fascist movements in usa, why should it be different from you political views on israel

 

[Shaul]

Dismissing any examples of highlighting harmful Israeli policies as "Jew-hating propaganda" or "antisemitism" strikes me, yet again, as extremely similar to charges of "Islamophobia" from Islamists when anyone criticizes human rights violations or hateful rhetoric from Islamic countries or preachers.

It doesn't surprise me that politicians and some governments would dismiss such a report if they would have little or no geopolitical or diplomatic gain from acknowledging the validity of at least some of its points. Amnesty is not the only organization to have described Israeli policies as apartheid:

Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert

A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution

Parliamentary question | Israel imposing apartheid policies on Palestinians | E-001475/2022 | European Parliament

I didn't dismiss all criticisms of Israeli policies. I pointed out that this particular report is biased, flawed and wrong. And that many governments agree with that assessment. Israel is not an apartheid state. Furthermore the UN repealed its own resolution calling Israel racist and that by extension doesn't practice apartheid. So any "UN human rights expert" that says that it is can go pound sand. As for Europe, they should address their own atrocious record on human rights before opining about others.

 

[Shaul]

from what I've seen of your politics on this forum, it supports fascist movements in usa, why should it be different from you political views on israel

Making ad hominem attacks on Christmas eve. Tut, tut. For shame.

 

[Lyndon]

Making ad hominem attacks on Christmas eve. Tut, tut. For shame.

well its not surprising that someone that supports fascist policies would claim they are not fascist

 

[sun rise]

The origin of the State of Israel's "Right of Return" is not traced to the Nazis. It's origin comes from Theodore Herzl and the World Jewish Congress' of the late nineteenth century which was long before the Nazis.

That is historically true but the provision for who was covered by that right is a different point. If you have a different origin for the specific grandfather provision in the right, provide a link.

 

[LuisDantas]

..but our permanent abode is with God.
We all have to die and return to God .. money will no longer be a useful currency.
Only our deeds and intentions will matter then.

You may well believe in that.

But expecting others to make concessions and go through significant risks out of sympathy for that belief is simply too much to ask.

I see the rise of the far right in Israel with significant worry and disgust, but I can't very well choose to attribute to that country quite so much responsibility for the difficulties there as some seem to expect.

For starters, we should probably acknowledge that Israelis have significant, legitimate concerns about their safety arising from the attitude of neighboring communities. I just don't see how much progress can be made before that point is well accepted - and I really think that it turns out to be a perhaps unsurmountable obstacle, sad and silly as that is.

For the record, I don't think that anyone has any true right over any territory. And I won't consider claims of divine or ancestral right at all, either. I could not even make the attempt without being very hypocritical, since I am a Brazilian atheist.

What does exist is a practical need for people to have living territory and political rights. Those are ultimately rather arbitrary and demand sober decisions and planning. For far too long we have been effectively impeding ourselves those decisions by valuing nationalities and by being way too casual about having offspring without a clear plan for their future.