Who is a Jew - right of return to Israel

[jbg]

I don't care. I just want my government to stop supporting it and involving us in this crap by stealing our taxpayer dollars to prop up foreign countries who don't give us a damn thing in return. We send Israel billions each year and bend over backwards, even allowing the scandal of foreign lobbyists to buy off US "elected representatives", meanwhile they spy on us and commit atrocities. If God is truly with them, they'll be just fine without us. Americans need that money much more.

Oh, and if ethnic Europeans or white people spoke like that Avi guy, they'd be called Nazis and racists - probably by people like Avi, although white people are in a worsening demographic decline. Love the double standards.

Israel gives a lot in return. How about being a giant "Normandy beachhead" in a very unstable part of the world?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't care. I just want my government to stop supporting it and involving us in this crap by stealing our taxpayer dollars to prop up foreign countries who don't give us a damn thing in return.

Quick side question: are you vaccinated?

 

[jbg]

Quick side question: are you vaccinated?

Twice vaccinated, twice boosted, Covid September 2-15 so next booster in January.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Twice vaccinated, twice boosted, Covid September 2-15 so next booster in January.

That's a good thing, but I was asking @Saint Frankenstein in the hopes that he would follow the link and reconsider his comment.

 

[sun rise]

All countries control their borders and immigration. Many, if not most, countries include ethnicity among their criteria. Jewish, as used by the State of Israel's immigration system, is an ethnic tribal definition, not a religious one in actuality. That is, an irreligious Jew (G-d forbid) is eligible for immigration. So anyone that wants to single out the State of Israel's immigration criteria because it includes the use of ethnicity is wrong to do so. And anyone that exclusively targets the State of Israel for doing so is themselves racist or discriminatory. Furthermore, the State of Israel is not, and never has been an apartheid state. Indeed calling the State of Israel an apartheid state is libelous. But many of its detractors who insist that the land of Judea and Samaria must be "Judenrein" and/or want to isolate and marginalize the State of Israel are themselves guilty of practicing apartheid.

Israel is entitled to use whatever criteria it wants but the origin of the current system traces back to nazi criteria. The effort by members of the Israeli government to change that means that Israel is not the same country as it was when I was growing up.

As far as Israel goes:

The comprehensive report, Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime against Humanity, sets out how massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions, and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians are all components of a system which amounts to apartheid under international law. This system is maintained by violations which Amnesty International found to constitute apartheid as a crime against humanity, as defined in the Rome Statute and Apartheid Convention. Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity

The Apartheid Convention is specifically about racism but to me practices of the Israeli government and by settlers match details in that convention and thus the Amnesty report applies

In addition, the military.com article in a post that was removed should be noted by any who care about American tech being transferred to China and Russia Report: Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

I don't care. I just want my government to stop supporting it and involving us in this crap by stealing our taxpayer dollars to prop up foreign countries who don't give us a damn thing in return...

I would guess that you're also against all the aid that the U.S. sends to the Palestinians, but I rarely hear comments against U.S. Palestinian aid when people are targeting Israel.

"Since April 2021, the United States has provided over half a billion dollars in assistance for the Palestinians, including more than $417 million in humanitarian assistance for Palestinian refugees through UNRWA, $75 million in support through USAID, and $20.5 million in COVID and Gaza recovery assistance.

"The U.S. government plans to provide an additional $75 million in economic assistance to the Palestinian people this year. Additionally, the United States is also providing $45 million for programs to support the security sector including important improvements to the rule of law.

"U.S. assistance for the Palestinian people supports the Palestinian private sector, rapid relief to the neediest households, strengthening Palestinian civil society, and providing access to basic services such as water, sanitation, and hygiene. It also advances the rule of law, particularly in the security sector."

Quoted from: U.S. Department of State

Unfortunately, we don't see that aid money being used to build schools and infrastructure in Palestine. Instead, aid from the U.S. and other countries has been funneled by the Palestinian Authority into a "pay for slay" scheme, encouraging suicide martyrs to kill Israeli citizens.

Australia, Germany, Netherlands, and Norway, as well as the U.S. have protested their aid being used for this purpose, and have cut back aid accordingly. Source: Wikipedia and cited sources at the end of this article

There is so much hatred for Israel, however, that few people are willing to talk about this.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There is so much hatred for Israel, however, that few people are willing to talk about this.

What do you believe underlies the hatred or general negative sentiments against Israel among various political and social circles? And do you believe any of the negative sentiments are justified or at least rooted in valid reasons?

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

What do you believe underlies the hatred or general negative sentiments against Israel among various political and social circles? And do you believe any of the negative sentiments are justified or at least rooted in valid reasons?

Being a U.S. citizen, it's been my observation that well-meaning Americans will tend to side with the perceived underdog, and Palestine is seen as the underdog because it is not as strong as Israel. I certainly don't believe that "might makes right" -- but I also don't believe that just because a nation is weaker in its conflicts with another nation, that necessarily makes the weaker nation without fault of its own.

While it's true that Israel is better able to protect itself against hostile neighbors, and Israel will retaliate against attacks with force, that doesn't exonerate the hostile neighbors from their end-game desire of the total destruction of Israel. "From the river to the sea" is a shout that is well-known to Israeli citizens, and I trust you know what that shout means.

I obviously don't live in Israel or Palestine, so I don't experience the on-going conflict there. I acknowledge that people have been wronged on both sides of the conflict (as occurs in conflicts that seem to be never-ending). As a person who prays, I pray for eventual peace for both sides in the conflict.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Being a U.S. citizen, it's been my observation that well-meaning Americans will tend to side with the perceived underdog, and Palestine is seen as the underdog because it is not as strong as Israel. I certainly don't believe that "might makes right" -- but I also don't believe that just because a nation is weaker in its conflicts with another nation, that necessarily makes the weaker nation without fault of its own.

While it's true that Israel is better able to protect itself against hostile neighbors, and Israel will retaliate against attacks with force, that doesn't exonerate the hostile neighbors from their end-game desire of the total destruction of Israel. "From the river to the sea" is a shout that is well-known to Israeli citizens, and I trust you know what that shout means.

I obviously don't live in Israel or Palestine, so I don't experience the on-going conflict there. I acknowledge that people have been wronged on both sides of the conflict (as occurs in conflicts that seem to be never-ending). As a person who prays, I pray for eventual peace for both sides in the conflict.

Thank you for the detailed response. I hope for peace as well, although I don't know whether it will happen in my lifetime, unfortunately. The demagogues who stoke violence and tribalistic sentiments also dampen any peacemaking efforts.

Wishing you shalom/salaam.

 

[LuisDantas]

The way I see it, the ideas of nation and nationality are simply unworkable. It is a matter of more urgency for Israelis, but it just doesn't really work anywhere.

The idea of a self-defined community with discernible boundaries and enumerable membership may be appealling, but it is also quite arbitrary. People's ethnic and even cultural backgrounds are simply not that easy to grasp, describe or control even if they want it to be to begin with - which they ethically probably should not.

More significant still is that there is not much of even an appearance of a constructive goal for such concerns. Instead of attempting to settle rules about the crossing of countries' borders, we all ought to engage in serious thoughts about the responsibility of births and governments. Citizenships are currently largely a result of birth circunstance, and democratic groups have largely neglected the IMO evident duty of attempting to plan for population levels and proper government support.

Closing or controlling borders is just wishful thinking. It is the use of very arbitrary rules to attempt to build entirely fictional realities.

 

[muhammad_isa]

While it's true that Israel is better able to protect itself against hostile neighbors, and Israel will retaliate against attacks with force, that doesn't exonerate the hostile neighbors from their end-game desire of the total destruction of Israel..

I would have thought that the more Israel becomes extreme in its political segregation, the more hatred will increase.

I was raised as a Christian, and as a Muslim, I see that Israel is an established state. I see that most Muslim countries do not accept it as such, although some do.

I do not agree with racist supremacy of any kind .. be it white / black, or Jew / Muslim etc.

I have no interest in living in a community where that is going on, whatever party is ruling.
I do not believe that life was so bad for Jews in the days when Muslims were in charge .. the troubles mainly started when the British pulled out after WWII .. they were effectively bankrupt.

Many Palestinians have Jewish ancestors that became Muslims.

Zionism is a political ideology.
God, the Most High, does not like those who oppress others.
It does not bode well.
The sequel, is for those who ward of evil, and treat others, how they would like to be treated themselves.

Almighty God does not favour Isaac's seed over Ishmael's seed.
Neither does He favour Ishmael's seed over Isaacl's seed.

What God DOES favour, is righteousness.

End of lecture.

 

[jbg]

Israel is entitled to use whatever criteria it wants but the origin of the current system traces back to nazi criteria. The effort by members of the Israeli government to change that means that Israel is not the same country as it was when I was growing up.

I'm not sure I follow but I am not in favor of any "Orthodox only" policy.

As far as Israel goes:

The comprehensive report, Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime against Humanity, sets out how massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions, and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians are all components of a system which amounts to apartheid under international law. This system is maintained by violations which Amnesty International found to constitute apartheid as a crime against humanity, as defined in the Rome Statute and Apartheid Convention. Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity

The Apartheid Convention is specifically about racism but to me practices of the Israeli government and by settlers match details in that convention and thus the Amnesty report applies

In addition, the military.com article in a post that was removed should be noted by any who care about American tech being transferred to China and Russia Report: Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China.

I started to read that report, but consider it heavily unbalanced. The tone is set in the "Executive Summary." Excerpts:

Apparently the "Palestinians" and their Arab allies did not recognize that "de facto border" since Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran.

In this way, Amnesty International has demonstrated that Israel has imposed a system of oppression and
domination over Palestinians wherever it exercises control over the enjoyment of their rights – across Israel
and the OPT and with regard to Palestinian refugees. The segregation is conducted in a systematic and
highly institutionalized manner through laws, policies and practices, all intended to prevent Palestinians
from claiming and enjoying equal rights to Jewish Israelis within Israel and the OPT, and thus intended to
oppress and dominate the Palestinian people.

In un-fancy words, then, Israel should not be able to defend itself.

Would an Independent Palestine, or any Arab state, tolerate as much as Israel does? I looked in vain for the Amnesty International report on the Hama Massacre of February 1982, see Remembering the Hama Massacre, where Syria's own media boasted that Mama had been reduced to the status of a "village." The media stated that "in fact Hama was reduced to rubble. Amnesty International is supposed to be a neutral authority, and it clearly isn't. Where are the reports on flaming balloons from Gaza? Where are the reports on missile launchers being placed on roofs of hospitals, apartment buildings and other civilian structures?

What do you believe underlies the hatred or general negative sentiments against Israel among various political and social circles? And do you believe any of the negative sentiments are justified or at least rooted in valid reasons?

I think it is rooted in the same forces that have motivated anti-Judaism over the years. Excellent starting points are From Prejudice to Destruction: Anti-Semitism 1700-1933 by Jacob Katz, Why the Jews? by Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin, Why the Germans? Why the Jews?: Envy, Race Hatred, and the Prehistory of the Holocaust by Aly, Götz, and Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition by David Nirenberg.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't hate Palestinians. But I have noticed that you never seem to miss an opportunity on these forums to denigrate Jews. Your recent crack about Jews being a "Master Race" betrays your own hatred and antisemitic belief that Jews are somehow in control of the world.

Generally I like @Lyndon . But at times he gets a bit excited. The Jews in Israel were put in a tough position. There was organized violence coming from the Palestinians. Their solution is far from perfect, but until the Palestinians agree that the Jews have a right to live in the region too their hand is forced.

One cannot exile violent Palestinians set on exterminating the Jews. And unless there have been changes I do not know of any Palestinian leaders that are willing to admit that the Jews have a right to live in Israel too.

When under constant internal warfare what else is one to do?

 

[Lyndon]

The usual anti zionism is anti semitism BS, I have Jewish friends including one in Israel, they are all against the zionist government of Israel, and support a two state solution

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Thank you for the detailed response. I hope for peace as well, although I don't know whether it will happen in my lifetime, unfortunately. The demagogues who stoke violence and tribalistic sentiments also dampen any peacemaking efforts.

Wishing you shalom/salaam.

Thank you, DS. I'm generally not keen on posting about politics. I appreciate and share your desire for peace. Wishing you (and even those who do not wish me well) Salaam/Shalom.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think it is rooted in the same forces that have motivated anti-Judaism over the years. Excellent starting points are From Prejudice to Destruction: Anti-Semitism 1700-1933 by Jacob Katz, Why the Jews? by Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin, Why the Germans? Why the Jews?: Envy, Race Hatred, and the Prehistory of the Holocaust by Aly, Götz, and Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition by David Nirenberg.

While I have absolutely no doubt that antisemitism motivates the calls to exterminate all Jews or the idea that they are an inherently "treacherous" or otherwise dangerous people, I think there is a lot of valid criticism of Israel and its policies concerning expansion, annexation of Palestinian territories, and refusal to reform said policies.

Also, what's the purpose of putting "Palestinians" in quotation marks? I hope that's not intended to express disbelief in the legitimacy of their very identity or nation.

 

[Lyndon]

While I have absolutely no doubt that antisemitism motivates the calls to exterminate all Jews or the idea that they are an inherently "treacherous" or otherwise dangerous people, I think there is a lot of valid criticism of Israel and its policies concerning expansion, annexation of Palestinian territories, and refusal to reform said policies.

Also, what's the purpose of putting "Palestinians" in quotation marks? I hope that's not intended to express disbelief in the legitimacy of their very identity or nation.

Zionists actually preach that Palestinians don't exist, and that Palestine never existed

 

[Debater Slayer]

Zionists actually preach that Palestinians don't exist, and that Palestine never existed

I prefer to focus on individual opinions and ask people what they believe instead of making sweeping generalizations, as I have seen considerable variation despite whatever the majority opinion may be. That said, extremist Zionism and Islamism both seem to me to be two sides of the same tribalistic, warmongering coin.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The usual anti zionism is anti semitism BS, I have Jewish friends including one in Israel, they are all against the zionist government of Israel, and support a two state solution

And a two state solution is the ideal one. How are they to achieve one?

 

[muhammad_isa]

That said, extremist Zionism and Islamism both seem to me to be two sides of the same tribalistic, warmongering coin.

Agreed upon..
Both of them are too busy thinking how self-righteous they are and lose touch with reality.

That's to be expected, as satan never gives up in his quest for creating enmity.