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Featured Who are the real Children of Israel?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Tazarah, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Every time you run out of responses to a point, you turn to rhetoric instead of counter-proofs. Which one of us is the one who doesn't want to accept the truth?
     
  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Are you saying that these pictures were taken with kodak cameras and are accurate representations of the skin tones of Egyptians? Sorry, I hope you don't mind if I take the side of modern scholarship on this one.
    Ancient Egyptian race controversy - Wikipedia

    Known by whom?

    You quoted that Luke verse earlier. But we already discussed that.

    Thanks for letting me know, I guess...

    Do you think all Jewish people maintain the same positions on everything? Do all black people believe they are the real Jews?

    Yes, I followed the link and all it did was make the same statement you did about the 1973 Encyclopedia with no link to any sources. But I guess if you're a believer, you don't need sources to believe something on the internet.

    Of course the only sites that carry that comment are all antisemitic ones. For some reason, I couldn't find it on any mainstream sites. And no one has posted an image or link of the comment in question. Not suspicious at all.

    Not as yet.


    The study was dismissed by Sergio DellaPergola as a "falsification", noting it failed to include Jewish groups such as the Italkim and Sephardic Jews, to whom Ashkenazi Jews are closely related genetically. Shaul Stampfer, a professor of Soviet and East European Jewry at the Hebrew University, called Elhaik's research "basically nonsense". Elhaik replied that the DNA of non-Ashkenazic Jews would not affect the origin of DNA hypothesized for the former.[18] Prof. Dovid Katz, founder of Vilnius University’s Yiddish Institute criticized the study’s linguistic analysis. “The authors have melded accurate but contextually meaningless genetic correlations with laughable linguistic theories that now proliferate, sadly, as a consequence of a much weakened Yiddish academic environment internationally ... there is not a single word or sound in Yiddish that comes from Iranian or Turkish".[19] In joint study published in 2016 by Genome Biology and Evolution, Pavel Flegontov from Department of Biology and Ecology, Faculty of Science, University of Ostrava, Czech Republic, A.A. Kharkevich Institute of Linguistics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Mark G. Thomas from Research Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment, University College London, UK, Valentina Fedchenko from Saint Petersburg State University, and George Starostin from Russian State University for the Humanities, dismissed both the genetic and linguistic components of Elhaik et al. study arguing that "GPS is a provenancing tool suited to inferring the geographic region where a modern and recently unadmixed genome is most likely to arise, but is hardly suitable for admixed populations and for tracing ancestry up to 1000 years before present, as its authors have previously claimed. Moreover, all methods of historical linguistics concur that Yiddish is a Germanic language, with no reliable evidence for Slavic, Iranian, or Turkic substrata." The authors concluded:

    "In our view, Das and co-authors have attempted to fit together a marginal and unsupported interpretation of the linguistic data with a genetic provenancing approach, GPS, that is at best only suited to inferring the most likely geographic location of modern and relatively unadmixed genomes, and tells nothing of population history and origin."[20]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Recent_studies
    These are not two separate opinions. The two of them worked together.
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    How did they figure out which chromosome belongs to Cohanim if she didn't have any Jewish Cohanim to compare them too...

    You're relying on one scholar from 150 years ago, and two scholars who are heavily controversial. You're grasping at straws man. Which is good, because you were doing all that hay making earlier.

    You should read the whole article there. Not only doesn't it say what you claim it does, the rest of it is quite informative and will really broaden your mind regarding the dispersal of Jews all over the world.

    STATISTICS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    This is from Encyclopedia.com, not from Encyclopedia Judaica. And what it's saying is that there were groups of Jews who may have originated in the Khazar empire. That's not the same thing as saying that all Ashkenazi Jews originate from the Khazars.

    Here it is quoted again, but again with no evidence.

    On the other hand at the same time as Mr. Poliak made his theory:

    Hans F. K. Günther argued that ... the Ashkenazi were a mix of Near Eastern, Oriental, East Baltic, Eastern, Inner-Asian, Nordic, Hamite, and Negro peoples
    Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry - Wikipedia


    So they're going to have to duke it out.

    Arthur Koestler, CBE (UK: /ˈkɜːrstlər/, US: /ˈkɛst-/; German: [ˈkœstlɐ]; Hungarian: Kösztler Artúr; 5 September 1905 – 1 March 1983) was a Hungarian-British author and journalist.​


    Just because an author writes something in a book, doesn't make it true.

    This is apparently an ideological stance, as he also stated, "It is a shame for somebody who defines himself as a Jew to look for a Jewish gene."

    I'm a Rabbinical Torah Jew. RTJ protests the Zionist state because it is a secular, atheist state. They are talking about the country, not the nation.

    There doesn't seem to be any reason why not.

    Yes, which makes your argument all the more ridiculous, because that same possibility means that even those who were not originally of Jewish descent can become part of Israel.

    If it comes from Elhaik and co. I won't be shocked at all. The greater part of the scientific world, specifically the genetic world, thinks that Elhaik is nuts. Who am I to disagree with them?
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I note, with no small measure of amusement, that this precise same statement can be made to you. Since you keep quoting and replying to me, you must know there is no truth to your argument, except I'm not a "simple negro". I'm just a simple Jew who supposedly has no idea what he is talking about.

    The difference is that I'm not just repeating the same verses and claims -- I am using logic to show you the error of your thinking, mostly because I truly want to help you see that even if you have a steadfast belief, you should should also work on your rhetorical skills.

    For example, you made a claim against what you believe I must think based on my behavior. While that, psychologically, is flawed, you also fail to see that the exact same claim can be made against you for the exact same behavior. You argue with blinders on, not seeing how your claims can be turned back on you. I just want you to open your eyes and see that your method is fatally flawed from the get-go.
     
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  5. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Well the thing is, you came to my thread (which I have no problem with) and you are basically trying to convince me that these facts are not what they are. The bible says what it says, and I’m sorry that it bothers you so much.
     
  6. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    There have been countless genetic studies all proving the same thing — the large majority of you descend from eastern europeans. You have no semetic DNA and are not the descendants of abahram, isaac and jacob. Not only are the genetics against you, but your OWN ENCYCLOPEDIAS document that over 90% of your people descend from european khazars who mass converted to judaism in the early centuries. Your OWN encyclopedias. Each one of them. Each version. Why would the jewish encyclipedias document that over 90% of jewish people descend from eastern european who emigrated? You are calling your own people liars? You dismiss all facts given by your scholars and sources, which I find incredibly hilarious.

    I understand how difficult it must be to even begin to try to accept all of these facts. Like I told somebody else, the truth is a hard pill to swallow — especially when you have been lied to for your whole life. But there comes a point in time where you have to let go of the delusions. Now you are claiming that King Tut’s throne is not an accurate depiction of him because the photo of it was taken with a kodak camera? LOL.

    That is King Tut’s throne, buddy. The same exact throne that he sat on when he reigned. It depicts both him and his wife as black african people, as any real historian knows the true and original ancient egyptians were. Ancient egypt was an african civilization and the egyptians did not suffer the consequences of racial mixing until more recent centuries. These are facts. King Tut’s throne is the closest you can get to actually being in ancient egypt, and you STILL come up with little petty excuses. You can deny this all you want, it would be no surprise. You deny literally everything, even when the solid facts and hard evidence are glaring you right in the face. I’m honestly over here laughing because anybody who is logical and rational can see that you are grasping for straws, it’s funny but I also have a certain amount of pity for you.

    Yes, the jews fled into africa to escape persecution. This is a known fact. Of course you are going to deny every single fact regardles of how obvious the truth is because there is no truth in you, and you will never admit the truth because you want to hold onto the lies. It’s hilarous. I have no problem continuing to present hard cold evidence proving who the true biblical israelites are, while watchin you make a mockery of yourself by trying to deny what has already been proven as fact.
    ____________________________________

    This map was created in 1747 by English cartographer Emmanuel Bowen as part of a collection. He was a renowned map maker with a reputation for being accurate. Here on his map of Negroland (Africa), he notes “The Kingdom of Juda” as the “The Slave Coast”.

    This proves that christian colonizers knew they were enslaving the sons of Jacob.

    Shown below, the Kingdom of Juda (or Whidah) can be clearly seen in the area named the "Slave Coast" where the Portuguese first set up their slave port in 1580.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/image...203f44842ca7e0573053ad29023d5067987e2991e.jpg

    The twenty eighth chapter of Deuteronomy verses 15 - 68 details the plight of the people of Yah after fleeing Jerusalem, and fifteen centries later being caught up in the transatlantic slave trade.

    On today's modern maps the place is called Ouidah, which means Whydah or Judah.

    Full size version of map:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/image...deb7439d1c860b6e1c26730814fbfe6724fec0561.jpg

    The reason Judah fled into Africa was to escape invading armies. Their enslavement by people in slave ships was a fulfillment of the following prophecy:

    “Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia: That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!” [Isaiah 18:1-2]

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/image...25f4a6cc6b93a5193020350bdd3b23283f24e457c.gif

    ____________________________________


    "White House Memo Of 1969 Under Nixon Called The Igbo Jews Of West Africa"


    White House Memo Of 1969 Under Nixon Called The Igbo Jews Of West Africa


    In a White House memo dated Tuesday, January 28, 1969, to President Nixon, former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger describes the Igbos as "the wandering Jews of West Africa-gifted, aggressive, westernized, at best envied and resented, but mostly despised by their neighbors in the federation." (foreign relations document, volume E-5, documents on Africa 1969-1972).


    Here is a photo of the text from the actual memo:


    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/image...ee3fd6ded164bf7e922483f84300f764de7dabc3b.png


    Here is a web link to the actual memo:


    Foreign Relations of the United States, 1969–1976, Volume E–5, Part 1, Documents on Sub-Saharan Africa, 1969–1972 - Office of the Historian
     
  7. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    First of all, there is no way to tell by DNA who is an israelite because israelite DNA has never been sequenced... you can google this yourself and see for yourself that it has never been sequenced. So how in the world is anybody able to claim jewness through DNA? The lying people claiming to be jews use their own DNA as a reference point whenever running “DNA tests” to see if somebody is a jew or not. And in any case, bible speaks against both science and DNA testing (1 Timothy 1:4, 1 Timothy 6:20, Titus 3:9) most likely because God knew that this would become a problem during this period of time.

    Now secondly, and most importantly, it’s not about race. It’s about bible prophecy. The curses of Deuteronomy 28 (Deuteronomy 28:15-68 specifically) are clear indicators of what the biblical israelites and their descendants would go through as punishment for breaking God’s laws. I will list some of them for you to see but I highly recommend reading the whole chapter. Notice how literally no group of people other than negroes match these curses word for word, literally every single one of them. Also notice how a good amount of these curses use the words “for ever” and “evermore”, meaning that the curses will be upon them until God returns. Do the “jews” in israel appear to be cursed for ever or evermore? Have they ever been affected by ANY of these curses? Have they fulfilled ANY of these prophetic curses? Luke 21:24 also goes on and says that the israelites in Jerusalem fell to their enemies and were led captive into all nations. Who in documented history is the only group of people that has been led captive into ALL nations? Jeremiah 17:4 says that the israelites would lose their heritage. Have the “jews” in Israel lost a heritage? So when you take a good look at bible prophecy, along with all of the other facts and evidence, anybody with an open mind and a working brain can see that something isn’t right.


    “Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
    And they shall be upon thee for a SIGN and for a wonder, and upon thy seed FOR EVER.” [Deuteronomy 28:45]

    “And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and spoiled EVERMORE, and no man shall save thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:29]

    “Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.” [Deuteronomy 28:30]

    “Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand:” [Deuteronomy 28:32]

    “The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and crushed ALWAY:” [Deuteronomy 28:33]

    “The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.” [Deuteronomy 28:36]

    “And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:37]

    “Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.” [Deuteronomy 28:39]

    “Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.” [Deuteronomy 28:41]

    “The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.” [Deuteronomy 28:43]

    “He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.” [Deuteronomy 28:44]

    “The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;” [Deuteronomy 28:49]

    “And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn FOR EVER.” [Jeremiah 17:4]

    “And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;” [Genesis 15:13]

    “And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.” [Deuteronomy 28:64]

    “And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.” [Deuteronomy 28:68]

    “Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a YOKE OF IRON upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:48]
     
  8. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 speaks volumes. A lot of the NT dives into these issues/gives a lot of clues regarding who the actual hebrews are, and one can’t help but assume that this is the reason why the “jews” do not accept the NT. Like I’ve said before this has nothing to do with race, pride, etc., and I am not trying to offend anyone. I’m just dealing with facts from both history and the bible. If I’m wrong then it should not be difficult to explain how I am wrong, but once hard, cold, and obvious facts begin to get denied and dismissed, that is when I stop taking people seriously.
     
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, you made a public post and made claims in it. I initially just showed you other opinions. You ignored that. Then I asked a logical question. You have sidestepped that. Of course, I have no problem with that behavior because it helps you keep your facade from collapsing. The facts are what they are. Sorry that you can't handle that. You might want to refrain from posting in a public forum if you don't like being called out for your errors.

    And, of course, as you continue to respond, this must be conclusive proof that you know you are wrong, or so goes your logic.
     
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  11. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I made a public post, and then yes, you provided opinions, but I have provided FACTS — and that’s what the difference is between you and I.
     
  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Well seeing there are only two tribes left in Israel, The tribe of Israel and the tribe of Judah and the other 10 tribes are scattered throughout the world.

    The question is, where are the other 10 tribes in the world?
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Well, you gave translations of verses and your opinion as to meaning. I presented other opinions. Are you claiming your interpretation to be the only factual and correct one? If so, say so.

    You also avoided questions about your interpolation of a word, your logical inconsistencies and your recent claim about the use of DNA tests by Jews.
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    There have been a variety of communities which have claimed to be from the 10 tribes (groups in China, Africa and India come to mind). Some have adhered to something resembling Jewish laws and traditions more closely than others. BTW, I'm not talking about Jewish communities in China or Ireland that can trace themselves to "regular" Jews, but to isolated groups which claim to be from the lost tribes. Example -- Bnei Menashe - Wikipedia
     
  15. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    This is where they have caused confusion. Israelite is a bloodline. Not all of the ancient Israelites were jews, but all of the jews were Israelites. Only the southern kingdom was considered jews. However, both kingdoms were Israelite by blood. Where the confusion began is when the real, actual Israelites were taken from their land and put into captivity (Luke 21:24). Around that time, people who converted to “judaism” were placed in the holy land, like we see in 2 Kings 17:24. Just like how the “jewish” encyclopedias document that over 90% of “jews” are descendants of eastern europeans. This is nothing new. Whenever God allowed the Israelites to be taken captive as punishment for their transgressions against him, their enemies would place non-jews into their land.

    ““They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.” [Deuteronomy 32:21]

    So in other words, the real jews have not been in their land since they have been exiled. The people who currently inhabit Jerusalem are impostors. Just like how the bible says (Revelation 2:9, Revelation 3:9), and the bible says that Christ himself will place the Israelites back into their land upon his return. The bible says nothing about a forced entry in 1947 with the help of the UN or a balfour declaration. The bible also says that once the Israelites are back into their land there will be no more war.

    “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” [Luke 21:24]

    The Israelites fell and were led captive into all nations, and gentiles are inhabiting Jerusalem... literally... all gentiles.
     
  16. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    This is the problem with you — I present facts and then you accuse me of creating my own interpretations when that is not true because the scriptures speak for themselves. I understand that you are a “jew” and that this must be hard for you but you have to understand that literally all of the facts are against you. Regardless of how much you try to make it seem like the facts don’t say what they say, you will never win. I know what I stand for and I know what the truth is, and regardless of what you say only negroes have fulfilled the prophetic curses of deuteronomy 28. Your people are not “forever oppressed” like stated in the curses. Your people never had yokes of iron around their necks. Your people have never been discontinued from a heritage. Your people have never been taken anywhere on ships as captives. All of this can be found in deuteronomy 28:15-68. The only thing that can’t be found is a point of time in history where your people were affected by any of these curses. You can say whay you want and believe what you want but you will never succeed at convincing me that facts are not facts, especially when there are facts from history as well as the bible.
     
  17. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Well, they do, but they don't say what you claim. This has been pointed out repeatedly.
    No, this is rather easy because you keep making very old mistakes.
    You mean like the logical inconsistencies? The word you insert in the text? Your mistaken claims about DNA use in Judaism? Which fact? The Hebrew texts you can't read or the gospels which have no authority? Which, pray tell?
    You mean like being completely wiped out? Oh yeah...for that one, the text is metaphorical.
    I am not interested in convincing you. I'm just trying to help you look less foolish. And remember, if you reply, you are admitting you are wrong. Those are your words. Remember when you wrote, "If you honestly in your heart felt like what I am saying is BS and did not have any truth to it, you would simply blow me off and go on about your business."? Feel free to respond and prove that you admit being wrong.
     
  18. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that I fully understand your question. Semitic people are semitic people. Arabs are semitic, etc. I am not denying that there semiticism exists. But when it comes to the people claiming to be jews, this is what I have found, from numerous sources:

    “The 1973 Jewish Encyclopedia documents that approximately 90% of the world’s so-called Jews are Khazar.

    A. N. Poliak, Professor of Medieval Jewish History at Tel Aviv University, says that the majority of Eastern European Jews are Khazar and Japhetic in origin, not Semitic. Immigration statistics indicate approximately 90% of the world’s so-called or self-styled ‘Jews’ living in 42 countries of the world are emigrants of Eastern European Khazar Jews.”

    Who are Jews?

    ^ the majority of eastern european jews are not semitic.

    In other words, they are the descendants of europeans who converted to judaism.

    For instance if hawaiian people mass converted to judaism in the early centuries, and then continue to pass on judaism throughout their generations for centuries upon centuries. That does not make them an actual Israelite/Jew by blood, because their ancestors were never actual Israelites/Jews to begin with. They merely comverted. There is nothing wrong with convertin to “judaism”, but these people are falsely claiming they are the physical descendants of the biblical Israelites.
     
  19. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    1. Where does any verse that I posted say that anybody was “completely wiped out”?

    2. Deuteronomy 28:68 — when in documented history have your people ever been taken anywhere on ships to be sold?

    3. Deuteronomy 28:48 — when have your people ever had yokes of iron put upon their necks by their enemies?

    4. Deuteronomy 28:29, Deuteronomy 28:33 — are your people “forever oppressed”?

    You need to stop putting words in my mouth. Trust me, you are not making me look like a fool. I have provided countless facts from both in and out of the bible, you are merely grasping for straws.

    Regarding the DNA — I simply stated that ancient Israelite DNA has never been sequenced, yet “jews” claim that they are the descendants of the biblical Israelites, and whenever a test is done to determine “jewish” descent, they are not using ancient Israelite DNA. Do you see the deception in that?

    Also, a study was done that proves genetic markers cannot even determine jewish descent to begin with:

    Genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent

    Now do you see what I am saying? I can’t wait to see how you are going to try and twist what I am saying now.
     
  20. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    They migrated to the “middle east” after mass converting in the early centuries... that’s why it says “emigrants”.

    There is also proof in the bible that ashkenazi people are not semitic.

    “Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
    The sons of JAPHETH; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
    And the sons of Gomer; ASHKENAZ, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
    And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
    By these were the isles of the GENTILES divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.” [Genesis 10:1-5]
     
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