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Featured Who are the real Children of Israel?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Tazarah, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    According to scripture, the curses of deuteronomy 28 are supposed to be a way to identify who the descendants of the biblical Israelites are.

    “Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
    And they shall be upon thee for a SIGN and for a wonder, and upon thy seed FOR EVER.” [Deuteronomy 28:45]

    So in other words, the Children of Israel should be able to be identified by the curses listed in Deuteronomy 28:15-68 that are supposed to be upon them until Christ returns to put them back into their land. The bible basically says that the Children of Israel were scattered to the four corners of the earth, and are captives being oppressed. The curses of deuteronomy 28 clearly say that the Israelites would be taken away as slaves on ships to be sent to an unknown land where they would serve their enemies... and that their enemies would put a yoke of iron upon their necks.

    (I will list the curses at the end of this post.)

    Along with the multitude of curses found in Deuteronomy 28, Luke 21:24 also confirms that the Israelites would be exiled from the holy land until the return of Christ.

    “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” [Luke 21:24]

    ^ notice how it says that the Israelites would fall by the sword and be led away captive into ALL nations... and that the holy land would be trodden down of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled (second coming of Christ) ...

    So, now, ask yourself — which group of people have fulfilled the Israelite prophecies listed in this post? Is it the “jews” currently in Israel?

    What do you think?

    Here are some of the other curses that the biblical Israelites are supposed to have fulfilled/be fulfilling:

    “And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and spoiled EVERMORE, and no man shall save thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:29]

    “Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.” [Deuteronomy 28:30]

    “Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand:” [Deuteronomy 28:32]

    “The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and crushed ALWAY:” [Deuteronomy 28:33]

    “The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.” [Deuteronomy 28:36]

    “And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.” [Deuternomy 28:37]

    “Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.” [Deuteronomy 28:39]

    “Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.” [Deuteronomy 28:41]

    “The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.” [Deuteronomy 28:43]

    “He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.” [Deuteronomy 28:44]

    “The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;” [Deuteronomy 28:49]

    “And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn FOR EVER.” [Jeremiah 17:4]

    “And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;” [Genesis 15:13]

    “And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.” [Deuteronomy 28:64]

    “And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.” [Deuteronomy 28:68]

    “Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a YOKE OF IRON upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:48]
     
  2. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Every person on the Earth is the son and daughter of the same great great great great great......grandparents.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Try using a modern English Bible and more people will understand what you are saying... no one speaks archaic English anymore...

    Its time people buried the KJV....its dead.....way past its 'best before' date.
     
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  4. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    That’s your opinion... and you’re just one person. Out of all the biblical discussions that I’ve been in, you’re the first person that I’ve heard say that. No one speaks archaic english but I’m sure plenty, if not most people know how to read it. It’s also well known fact that the newer translations have missing verses.

    'Missing' Verses in Modern Translations (ESV, NIV, etc.) – Olive Tree
     
    #4 Tazarah, Sep 23, 2018
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  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    If you survived High School Shakespeare, you can survive the KJV. JW, up to your same old tricks eh?
     
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  6. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    That's a lot to read over, and to decide. I have heard a male Jew, in Israel say that Israel does not have the right to the land. I wish I could say who now. That was around 5 years ago, it'll be fun to look up tomorrow. I've also heard that the Zionists do not speak for the Jews, and it was the Zionists that got Israel back onto the land. Didn't have a reason to study the controversy before but now ...
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    LOL...did you even read what you linked to?

    "There are several verses included in the King James Version of the Bible that are not included in modern translations (NIV, ESV, etc.). As a Bible software company, Olive Tree does not make any decision to remove verses from any Bible. We publish Bibles as we receive them from the publisher without altering the text in any way.


    Modern scholars and translators of Bibles like the NIV and ESV intentionally decided to leave out verses like Matthew 18:11. Since the KJV text was completed in the early 1600s, we have discovered manuscripts of the Bible that are older and believed to be more accurate than the handful used to translate the KJV. The verses in question are not found in the older manuscripts when compared to manuscripts written at a later date. The verses that were added later could have been marginal notes by a scribe or an explanatory addition by the copyist.


    As a result, newer translations do not include these verses, but do make reference to them as footnotes. It is important to note that none of the missing verses alter any vital doctrine or theme of Scripture and tend to be of minor significance. I recommend reading through the introduction of the Bible you’re using for more information about the translators’ philosophy about issues like the missing verses."


    Apparently the verses that are included in the KJV are missing from the older manuscripts.....so the KJV is in error, not the more modern translations in this. That is not to say that there are no translation errors in the others, but lets be truthful eh?

    The KJV is difficult to understand for those who are not familiar with it and its language is completely outdated.
    Americans seem to have this funny notion that other countries are as "Christian" and as "churchgoing" as they seem to be, and therefore familiar with the KJV like everyone else....but they aren't. There are posters here from a wide range of countries.

    I am Australian and people here are very secular....you won't find too many people reading any Bible, let alone such an outdated one. If you started spouting off archaic English to them, they would just think you were stuck in some kind of weird time warp and have nothing relevant to the 21st century to tell them.

    The apostle Paul wrote..."For if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? 9 In the same way, unless you with the tongue use speech that is easily understood, how will anyone know what is being said? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air." (1 Corinthians 14:8-9) So there you have it....
     
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    23 sep 2018 stvdv
    who-are-the-real-children-of-israel

    That sounds like common sense. This makes human humble. That's human's big friend IMO.

    I have learned that human's big enemy is "desire" out of which arise all other unwanted qualities, like Jealousy, Greed, Anger, Hate. Culminating in Full Blown Narcissists.
     
    #8 stvdv, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Ignoring your invoking Jesus (as that is not in the text), you have presented one understanding, in line with, for example, the second explanation of the Rashbam's on the verse. Other commentators see it differently with the "and they" referring not to the curses, but to the immediate plural-noun-antecedent "commandments and statutes" that the laws will remain a sign identifying you as one of God's people even when you do not follow them (what the Haamek Davar writes).

    The Ibn Ezra seems to take a middle path identifying the sign as reminding the children of Israel of their rebellion (though he doesn't identify what that sign is, it is not upon the people, but in front of them). The laws do serve this purpose as they show our shortcomings. None of these indicate that the existence of a sign is so that anyone else can identify who the intended group is, only that the sign will be so that members of the group can assess their own status.
     
  10. Rival

    Rival Inodj har-ek Horu
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    Did you miss Jeremiah?

    They will not teach again, each man his neighbour and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the L-RD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the L-RD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

    Thus says the L-RD,
    Who gives the sun for light by day
    And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
    Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
    The LORD of hosts is His name:

    “If this fixed order departs
    From before Me,” declares the L-RD,
    “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.”

    Thus says the L-RD,
    “If the heavens above can be measured
    And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
    Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
    For all that they have done,” declares the L-RD.

    “Behold, days are coming,” declares the L-RD, “when the city will be rebuilt for the L-RD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. “The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. “And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the L-RD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.”

    So the answer to your question is, it's Israel, as in, the people who recieved the Torah at Mt Sinai. It always was and it always will be.
     
  11. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    @Hadar Judah -

    I think most of us the understand the underlying premise of this thread. For those who don't, why not just come right out and state it and then tell us with which group that espouses that position you are affiliated?
     
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  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Such things have happened to the Jews for a long time. Just because similar things have happened to other people does not prove they are the "real Jews". The world is a hard place and lots of bad things happen to lots of people.

    Jerusalem is still trodden down of the gentiles. Not to pick on Palestinians but it's a fact. Dome of the rock isn't Jewish, neither is Al Aqsa mosque.
     
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Greetings.
    In the Book of Galatians, the Covenant is described, so, that is what, Biblically, one would go off of. That is one Covenant, [given to Abraham, who is called a Gentile, in the text. The Israelites are called Gentiles. In the text, those under the law, are called Jews.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    From our scripture we can see that this prophesy applies to 'spiritual' Israel....not literal Israel.

    In the words of John the Baptist, regarded by the Jewish people as a prophet, he said to the Pharisees of the day....

    Matthew 3:9-10....(NASB)
    " and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

    It appears that they were skating on thin ice even then. The axe was already in place.....it fell when they murdered God's son.

    What had Israel done up to that point that had earned them any dispensation on their own merit? They used the merits of their forefather Abraham but had failed abysmally to emulate his faith and obedience.

    Jesus lamented....“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

    There was a chronic pattern of disobedience and a silencing of God's prophets sent to correct his wayward people over centuries.....as serial covenant breakers, why did the Jews assume that God would tolerate their disobedience forever? He kept them in existence for no other reason than his promise to Abraham to produce their Messiah. Once he had done that, his obligation to them was finished and in our view, so were they as his chosen people.

    Israel's history has furnished proof that they have not experienced God's blessing for thousands of years.....and Jerusalem today is a city of bloodshed. (Isaiah 1:15)

    Where is their Temple that was a central part of their worship.....why was it never rebuilt? How was Jewish worship altered as a result?

    Jesus continued...."Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:37-39)

    He was quoting Psalm 118:26 and for almost two thousand years the Jews have continued to deny that Jesus was the Christ....the one who came in the name of the Lord". They will never acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah because of pride, not evidence.

    It is indeed a fortunate thing IMO that many individual Jews have seen the truth, examined the evidence for themselves, and have now accepted Jesus as the one sent by God to save them.....not as "Messianic Jews", (or not quite "Jewish" Noahides,) but as "Christians", just as many Jews accepted Jesus' teachings in the first century and became "Christians" (much to the ire of the Pharisees.)

    It is our belief that those who hold onto that old way of thinking will be very disappointed in the outcome. But to each his own...our decisions are ours to make and they will impact on our future as they must. We will all stand before the same judge.
     
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  15. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    You have missed the point. After the KJV was written, they basically “found” newer manuscripts and started creating the newer translations based off of what the “newer” manuscripts say.

    “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” [Deuteronomy 4:2]

    “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” [Revelation 22:19]

    I could care less what people in australia think about the type of bible version that I read. The newer versions, as you can see, exclude certain verses and not all verses translate the same way and some verses even end up meaning something completely different than what they originally meant in the KJV.
     
  16. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    When have the “jews” in Israel been led away as captives into all nations on ships with yokes of iron upon their necks, to serve their enemies in an unknown land?

    The bible also says that the real Israelites would be placed back into their land by Christ himself when he returns. Christ has not yet returned and he has not placed those people into Israel.

    “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” [Revelation 2:9]
     
  17. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    I am shocked to see that somebody here even understands what any of this is all about
     
  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Jews have been all over the world. Even as far as China. The Romans enslaved many Jews after they destroyed Jerusalem and sold many as slaves who were taken on ships to Egypt to be sold. I suggest reading Josephus' book "The Wars of the Jews".
    Interesting claim, but which scripture are you speaking of exactly?
    This was a message to the early Christian church that was in the city of Smyrna. The message is not against all Jews everywhere but apparently a specific synagogue of "Jews". It was because they were persecuting the church in Smyrna.

    As Paul taught in Romans 2:28-29 he is not a Jew that is one outwardly but not inwardly. And God spoke by Jeremiah the prophet "Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ..." (Jeremiah 4:4)

    So being inwardly a Jew has always been more important than the outward Judaism. And whoever is only outwardly a Jew and not inwardly is not a real Jew.

    It is by works that we know the children of God from the children of satan as we read in 1 John 3:8 and John 8:44. So the condemnation from Jesus Christ that He would make them the "synagogue of Satan" was likely the judgment of God on that specific synagogue for their misdeeds.

    (1 John 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. ...

    (John 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
     
  19. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    When in history have european jews ever been scattered across the earth as slaves on ships? When have european jews been led as captives into all nations to serve enemies in unknown lands?

    “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” [Luke 21:24]

    The european jews relate to none of the curses found in deuteronomy 28:15-68, and those curses are supposed to upon the biblical Israelites forever (until the second coming) as a way to identify them. Why do the european jews relate to none of the curses, and why have they fulfilled none of the prophecies that the Israelites are supposed to fulfill? The bible also says that God is going to place the jews into Israel himself, has Christ returned yet?

    “Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
    And they shall be upon thee for a SIGN and for a wonder, and upon thy seed FOR EVER.” [Deuteronomy 28:45-46]

    “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” [Luke 21:24]

    “And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and spoiled EVERMORE, and no man shall save thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:29]

    “Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.” [Deuteronomy 28:30]

    “Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand:” [Deuteronomy 28:32]

    “The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and crushed ALWAY:” [Deuteronomy 28:33]

    “The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.” [Deuteronomy 28:36]
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well that's sneaky; saying "European" Jews have not been all over ... European Jews are European Jews because they were taken or went to Europe at some point. Possibly as slaves although not necessarily for all of them.

    As I pointed out there are Jewish communities all over the place. Not just Europe. So the European Jews are just one part of the dispersion. And there have been old Jewish communities even as far as China. History of the Jews in China - Wikipedia

    And even Ethiopia: Beta Israel - Wikipedia

    After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and many other Jewish towns/cities. The Romans took many captives and sold them(as was customary at the time) to slave traders who followed the army.

    1000s of the Jews were killed in the arenas for sport. But the ones who were left were sold and many were taken in ships to Egypt: likely the port city of Alexandria were they would have been sold again.

    As for Jerusalem being trodden down of the gentiles. If you go to Jerusalem you will find it is actually divided. East Jerusalem is all Palestinian. Furthermore the "old city" itself is divided into 4 quarters. 3 of those 4 quarters are gentile while only 1 is called the "Jewish quarter". So it's definitely still a city "trodden down of the gentiles".

    On the supposed temple mount there is the gentile(Islamic) Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Jews are not even allowed to come near.
     
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