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Featured Who are the 144,000?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period.
    Who are the 144,000? - GotQuestions.org
    www.gotquestions.org/144000.html

    Excerpt:

    Question: "Who are the 144,000?"

    Answer:
    The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole.

    There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).

    So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church.

    Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

    These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel.

    All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period.

    As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

    Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God.

    The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope.

    contined

    Who are the 144,000?
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled.

    The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people.

    Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
     
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Clarifying question:

    Do you think the book of revelations is authoritative?
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    How would I know? I don't know who the 144,000 are?

    Excerpt:

    In his book, Revelation Illustrated and Made Plain, Tim LaHaye argues that the 144,000 in Revelation 14 are a group of Gentile Christians who have been converted during the Tribulation and who have served the Lord with distinction before experiencing martyrdom. He admits that this is interpretation puts him “in the minority among commentators.”

    The scene in Revelation 14 portrays 144,000 men standing on Mt. Zion with Jesus. LaHaye contends that since this scene takes place in the middle of the Tribulation, and since Jesus would not be standing on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem at that time, the reference to Mt. Zion must be a symbolic reference to Heaven. So, he concludes that these are Gentiles who have died for their faith and who are now in Heaven with Jesus.

    I don’t think so. The first point I would make is that this scene is not in the middle of the Tribulation. All of chapter 14 is a flash forward to the end of the Tribulation, giving the reader a preview of what lies ahead, assuring him that Jesus will ultimately triumph. The second point I would make is that the group is not in Heaven.

    They are on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem where Jesus has returned to reign as King of kings. He has preserved them through the Tribulation, and He is celebrating His victory with them. They are singing a song heard from Heaven, a song which only they can sing (Revelation 14:2-3). Again, if this were a different 144,000 from the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation 7, I think the text would tell us so.

    What is the Purpose of the 144,000?

    continued

    The Mysterious 144,000
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This is where I get confused by your posts.

    I am quite sure that you have spoken about the book of Revelations and deemed it non-authoritative. If the book itself is not accurate, then the 144,000 is not accurate either.
     
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  6. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Who can understand R. ? Answer is in the beginning of R. Only those who can re - know it, go through same process that John went thru when he received R. Other symbol of who is one of 144000 is in Prodigal Son Story.- elder brother.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Can you explain?
     
  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Which part?
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    This...

    Answer is in the beginning of R. Only those who can re - know it, go through same process that John went thru when he received R. Other symbol of who is one of 144000 is in Prodigal Son Story.- elder brother.

    Are you saying Jews are the prodigal sons?
     
  10. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Well, don't look like I'll be among them. :(

    Egads! Tim LaHaye? THE Tim LaHaye??

    Tim LaHaye - Wikipedia

    In 1950, LaHaye received a Bachelor of Arts from Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina. LaHaye held the Doctor of Ministry degree from Western Seminary and a Doctor of Literature from Liberty University. He served as a pastor in Pumpkintown, South Carolina, and after that he pastored a congregation in Minneapolis until 1956. After that, the LaHaye family moved to San Diego, California, where he served as pastor of the Scott Memorial Baptist Church (now called Shadow Mountain Community Church[5]) for nearly 25 years. In 1971, he founded Christian Heritage College, now known as San Diego Christian College.

    In 1972, LaHaye helped establish the Institute for Creation Research at Christian Heritage College in El Cajon, California, along with Henry M. Morris.
     
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  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I'm not a fan of Lahaye.. and I don't have a clue who the 144.000 are.
     
  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    The interesting thing about the 144000 is that the tribes have been changed. That would be one of the key points if anybody could answer that.

    Also the 144000 are nowhere said to be Kings and Priests, but seem to be very pure and singers who stand by Gods throne.

    Both the 144 000 and the Great crowd are before the throne and both are said to be in heaven.

    There is also a separation between Israel and the nations in Revelation. The 144 000 are Israel, whereas the great crowd are of the nations, tribes, etc. Yet it is also said in the scripture that those of the nations, tribes etc will be Kings and Priests on earth.

    Nowhere does it say the Great Crowd are on earth in Revelation 7 and 19. Gods people will eventually be on earth as per chapter 21 and 22, where Holy Jerusalem descends to earth.

    Anyway, I have actually explained this in detail in other posts. Its getting tiring.
     
  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Read the story , elder son never left the father. 144000 is symbolic number of Adepts . Other thing the Greek word in R. Is re - know not re - read. Gnosis process must be involved to repeat John’s experience “ in spirit” to understand R.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The prodigal was the younger son. I'd forgotten that..

    What are "adepts"?
     
  15. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Adepts are enlightened teachers.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Oh.. symbolic being the operative word. I can get that.
     
  17. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    They use numerology so you have to see any numbers being a part of chain of information so it fits in coded message.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Numerology makes sense. Thanks.
     
  19. calm

    calm Active Member

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    @sooda
    The 144,000 are the chosen Hebrews who stayed with God. They will reign with God the Father in heaven forever and ever.
    There is another group of people(from all nations) who will receive eternal life too, they are called "the righteous". They will live with God the Son on earth forever and ever in peace. The 144,000 chosen will lose their physical body and will be like the angels. The righteous will still possess a body and be bound to the physical world.
     
    #19 calm, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Why are you certain you're correct?
     
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