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Who are the 144,000?

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
The 144,000
Zechariah refers to Zion not as a place but as people. (Zechariah 2:7) Since the writer in Revelation is alluding to Zeke and not the other way around and since we have been told that Revelation is full of symbols its fair to guess that 'the Lamb standing upon mount Zion with the 144,000' is entirely one symbol not three separate ones.

One aspect: 144,000 is divisible by 4. It is 36,000 x 4. That part is more difficult. It only matches 1 thing in the entire biblical canon -- the arrangement of Israel's tribes around their tabernacle. There are 12 tribes. 12 x 12 = 144 and is also divisible by 4. Two tribes are on the south side, three on all the other sides, one in the middle.

Another aspect: A lamb is a quadruped that does not scream when it is killed. It symbolizes martyrdom.

Another aspect: Mount Zion as Zechariah has pointed out is not limited to a particular place. It is a kind of people.

All three are one. All three describe one group of people. :cool: How's that for a guess? Gonna go write a book now? Too late only me and RF have copyright on it at this point in time.
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
How would I know? I don't know who the 144,000 are?

Excerpt:

In his book, Revelation Illustrated and Made Plain, Tim LaHaye argues that the 144,000 in Revelation 14 are a group of Gentile Christians who have been converted during the Tribulation and who have served the Lord with distinction before experiencing martyrdom. He admits that this is interpretation puts him “in the minority among commentators.”

The scene in Revelation 14 portrays 144,000 men standing on Mt. Zion with Jesus. LaHaye contends that since this scene takes place in the middle of the Tribulation, and since Jesus would not be standing on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem at that time, the reference to Mt. Zion must be a symbolic reference to Heaven. So, he concludes that these are Gentiles who have died for their faith and who are now in Heaven with Jesus.

I don’t think so. The first point I would make is that this scene is not in the middle of the Tribulation. All of chapter 14 is a flash forward to the end of the Tribulation, giving the reader a preview of what lies ahead, assuring him that Jesus will ultimately triumph. The second point I would make is that the group is not in Heaven.

They are on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem where Jesus has returned to reign as King of kings. He has preserved them through the Tribulation, and He is celebrating His victory with them. They are singing a song heard from Heaven, a song which only they can sing (Revelation 14:2-3). Again, if this were a different 144,000 from the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation 7, I think the text would tell us so.

What is the Purpose of the 144,000?

continued

The Mysterious 144,000


Yes, but Revelation specifically states that the 144,000 are 12,000 each of the 12 Hebrew tribes. So, it couldn't be Christians unless the Christians are of Hebrew heredity.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Yes, but Revelation specifically states that the 144,000 are 12,000 each of the 12 Hebrew tribes. So, it couldn't be Christians unless the Christians are of Hebrew heredity.

The people definitely have to Israelites, most likely Christian. I would not say Hebrews because that would include those descendent from Ishmael.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?”

Numerology makes sense. Thanks.

In numerology 144,000 would also be 9.

Now that gets interesting :D

".....When you multiply any number by 9, then add the resulting digits and reduce them to a single digit, it always becomes a 9. For example, 6 x 9 = 54, reduce 54 to a single digit by adding them together: 5 + 4 = 9. Similarly, 8 x 9 = 72, and 7 + 2 = 9. Or 23 x 9 = 207, 2 + 0 + 7 = 9, and so forth. There is nothing coincidental about this peculiarity. Try it. Any number, no matter how large, multiplied by 9 reduces to 9. From a numerological perspective, the 9 simply takes over.........Any number that was initially increased by a factor of 9 loses its own identity and instead takes on the characteristics of the 9. No other number has that quality....."

"....Number 9 is the number of Universal love, eternity, faith, Universal Spiritual Laws, the concept of karma, spiritual enlightenment, spiritual awakening, service to humanity, humanitarianism and the humanitarian,......."

Thus it could very well be that 144,000 numerically points us to the Message of Baha'u'llah.

One could go in one of the 9 doors of a Baha'i Temple and pray for guidance!

G_d is most great and how much we do not understand about Prophecy. :D;)

Regards Tony
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
In numerology 144,000 would also be 9.

Now that gets interesting :D

".....When you multiply any number by 9, then add the resulting digits and reduce them to a single digit, it always becomes a 9. For example, 6 x 9 = 54, reduce 54 to a single digit by adding them together: 5 + 4 = 9. Similarly, 8 x 9 = 72, and 7 + 2 = 9. Or 23 x 9 = 207, 2 + 0 + 7 = 9, and so forth. There is nothing coincidental about this peculiarity. Try it. Any number, no matter how large, multiplied by 9 reduces to 9. From a numerological perspective, the 9 simply takes over, like the infamous body snatchers. Any number that was initially increased by a factor of 9 loses its own identity and instead takes on the characteristics of the 9. No other number has that quality....."

"....Number 9 is the number of Universal love, eternity, faith, Universal Spiritual Laws, the concept of karma, spiritual enlightenment, spiritual awakening, service to humanity, humanitarianism and the humanitarian,......."

Thus it.could very well be that 144,000 numerically points us to the Message of Baha'u'llah.

G_d is most great and how much we do not understand about Prophecy. :D;)

Regards Tony

Does the number 9 have any relevavence in the Bible? The reason why the division of twelve and its relevence is much more plausible than 9, since there are 12 tribes made out of 12000 people.

Check this out:

Biblical numerology - Wikipedia
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does the number 9 have any relevavence in the Bible? The reason why the division of twelve and its relevence is much more plausible than 9, since there are 12 tribes made out of 12000 people.

Check this out:

Biblical numerology - Wikipedia

Thank you for link - I personally see the number 7 would be most applicable to the Bible. I am thinking that 8 may have some relevance in the Quran and I know the number 9 has significance in the Baha'i Faith.

I did a bit of research into this, there are people that have done lots with this subject.

Regards Tony
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Thank you for link - I personally see the number 7 would be most applicable to the Bible. I am thinking that 8 may have some relevance in the Quran and I know the number 9 has significance in the Baha'i Faith.

I did a bit of research into this, there are people that have done lots with this subject.

Regards Tony

7 I think is the most often used actually. Especially in Revelation.

I have heard that apparently 19 has a big relevence in the Quran.

I am learning about the Bahai'i from Trailblazer so thanks very much for the bahai view of 9.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
7 I think is the most often used actually. Especially in Revelation.

I have heard that apparently 19 has a big relevence in the Quran.

I am learning about the Bahai'i from Trailblazer so thanks very much for the bahai view of 9.

I wish you well, also I also meant to say that Nine is the numerical value of the word Baha according to the Arabic system of numerology, called the Abjad system.

The Abjad system was widely used in the past. One could write a tablet and at the same time the numerical value of the words would tell another story.

Nabil wrote the time of his death in the word “Drowned.”

Regards Tony
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Yes, but Revelation specifically states that the 144,000 are 12,000 each of the 12 Hebrew tribes. So, it couldn't be Christians unless the Christians are of Hebrew heredity.

You must mean that the 144,000 are 12,000, chosen from 12 of the 13 tribes of Israel, none are chosen from the tribe of Dan, and 12 thousand are gentiles chosen by Paul to replace the lost tribe of Benjamin, which was destroyed by his brother tribes.

See Judges 20: 48. GNB Catholic Study Edition: 'The Israelites turned back against the rest of the Benjaminites and killed them all----Men, women, and children, and Animals as well. They burned every town, etc.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I wish you well, also I also meant to say that Nine is the numerical value of the word Baha according to the Arabic system of numerology, called the Abjad system.

The Abjad system was widely used in the past. One could write a tablet and at the same time the numerical value of the words would tell another story.

Nabil wrote the time of his death in the word “Drowned.”

Regards Tony

I must research the Abjad system. I am a creative person so i love cryptic symbolism puzzles. Which is why I love the Bible even though I am not a Christian. Thanks for the info.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
In numerology 144,000 would also be 9.

Now that gets interesting :D

".....When you multiply any number by 9, then add the resulting digits and reduce them to a single digit, it always becomes a 9. For example, 6 x 9 = 54, reduce 54 to a single digit by adding them together: 5 + 4 = 9. Similarly, 8 x 9 = 72, and 7 + 2 = 9. Or 23 x 9 = 207, 2 + 0 + 7 = 9, and so forth. There is nothing coincidental about this peculiarity. Try it. Any number, no matter how large, multiplied by 9 reduces to 9. From a numerological perspective, the 9 simply takes over.........Any number that was initially increased by a factor of 9 loses its own identity and instead takes on the characteristics of the 9. No other number has that quality....."

"....Number 9 is the number of Universal love, eternity, faith, Universal Spiritual Laws, the concept of karma, spiritual enlightenment, spiritual awakening, service to humanity, humanitarianism and the humanitarian,......."

Thus it could very well be that 144,000 numerically points us to the Message of Baha'u'llah.

One could go in one of the 9 doors of a Baha'i Temple and pray for guidance!

G_d is most great and how much we do not understand about Prophecy. :D;)

Regards Tony

Numerology makes sense, but I think numerology is for crackpots just like astrology.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The people definitely have to Israelites, most likely Christian. I would not say Hebrews because that would include those descendent from Ishmael.

Ishmael was 137 when he died and had 12 sons. In descending order, they are Nebajoth, and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadad and Tema, and Jetur, and Naphish and Kedmah. After their father’s death, the sons lived between Havilah and Shur.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
In numerology 144,000 would also be 9.

Now that gets interesting :D

".....When you multiply any number by 9, then add the resulting digits and reduce them to a single digit, it always becomes a 9. For example, 6 x 9 = 54, reduce 54 to a single digit by adding them together: 5 + 4 = 9. Similarly, 8 x 9 = 72, and 7 + 2 = 9. Or 23 x 9 = 207, 2 + 0 + 7 = 9, and so forth. There is nothing coincidental about this peculiarity. Try it. Any number, no matter how large, multiplied by 9 reduces to 9. From a numerological perspective, the 9 simply takes over.........Any number that was initially increased by a factor of 9 loses its own identity and instead takes on the characteristics of the 9. No other number has that quality....."

"....Number 9 is the number of Universal love, eternity, faith, Universal Spiritual Laws, the concept of karma, spiritual enlightenment, spiritual awakening, service to humanity, humanitarianism and the humanitarian,......."

Thus it could very well be that 144,000 numerically points us to the Message of Baha'u'llah.

One could go in one of the 9 doors of a Baha'i Temple and pray for guidance!

G_d is most great and how much we do not understand about Prophecy. :D;)

Regards Tony
144 = 9 x 18, if it matters to you. I don't know. I'm just guessing and horsing about, since I don't really trust anybody's assurances about 9 meaning this or that. They used to tell me 7 was the number of new beginnings, but it was apparently just some pat answer to keep me from being further interested and make the minister sound smarter than me.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The number for man is who was created on the sixth day, is six. The number for God is three, and the number of the beast, is not six hundred and sixty six, as many seem to believe, but 6.6.6, six three times. The number of the risen body of the anointed one, who revealed himself through his earthly host body Jesus, who he filled with his spirit/words, and who ceased to be an individual entity, when he abandoned Jesus on the cross as the graves of all the righteous who had been gathered to him in his ascension to the highest heaven, were opened, is 144,000.

Now divide 144,000 by 6 three times...…. 144,000 by six=24,000 by six=4,000 by six=666.666666666666666 add infinity, "ETERNAL MAN, The Son of Man"

Whose earthly 'IMAGE' (The man Jesus) had to be lifted up upon a pole in the same manner as Moses lifted up an 'IMAGE' of the serpent, whose poison was coursing through the veins of God people and killing them, in order that they only had to turn to the 'IMAGE of the serpent that had been lifted up, in order to be saved. John 3: 14.

The Lord said through the mouth of his servant Jesus; in John 17: 5; "Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the same glory I had with you before the world was made."

This was the Lord who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will raise up for them a prophet Just like you from among their own people: and I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. And I will punish whoever will not heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in MY NAME.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The number for man is who was created on the sixth day, is six. The number for God is three, and the number of the beast, is not six hundred and sixty six, as many seem to believe, but 6.6.6, six three times. The number of the risen body of the anointed one, who revealed himself through his earthly host body Jesus, who he filled with his spirit/words, and who ceased to be an individual entity, when he abandoned Jesus on the cross as the graves of all the righteous who had been gathered to him in his ascension to the highest heaven, were opened, is 144,000.

Now divide 144,000 by 6 three times...…. 144,000 by six=24,000 by six=4,000 by six=666.666666666666666 add infinity, "ETERNAL MAN, The Son of Man"

Whose earthly 'IMAGE' (The man Jesus) had to be lifted up upon a pole in the same manner as Moses lifted up an 'IMAGE' of the serpent, whose poison was coursing through the veins of God people and killing them, in order that they only had to turn to the 'IMAGE of the serpent that had been lifted up, in order to be saved. John 3: 14.

The Lord said through the mouth of his servant Jesus; in John 17: 5; "Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the same glory I had with you before the world was made."

This was the Lord who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will raise up for them a prophet Just like you from among their own people: and I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. And I will punish whoever will not heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in MY NAME.

Moses had been dead 900 years before Deuteronomy was written.. I'd take quotations with a grain of salt.

In the biblical Books of Kings ( 2 Kings 18:4 ), the Nehushtan (or Nohestan) is the derogatory name given to the bronze serpent on a pole first described in the Book of Numbers, which God told Moses to erect to so that the Israelites who saw it would be protected from dying from the bites...
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe they are Jews from Israel who are in a first fruit rapture around the time of Armageddon.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Who can understand R. ? Answer is in the beginning of R. Only those who can re - know it, go through same process that John went thru when he received R. Other symbol of who is one of 144000 is in Prodigal Son Story.- elder brother.

I don't think there is anything about an elder bother in the 144,000 or anything about the 144,000 in the prodigal parable.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The interesting thing about the 144000 is that the tribes have been changed. That would be one of the key points if anybody could answer that.

Also the 144000 are nowhere said to be Kings and Priests, but seem to be very pure and singers who stand by Gods throne.

Both the 144 000 and the Great crowd are before the throne and both are said to be in heaven.

There is also a separation between Israel and the nations in Revelation. The 144 000 are Israel, whereas the great crowd are of the nations, tribes, etc. Yet it is also said in the scripture that those of the nations, tribes etc will be Kings and Priests on earth.

Nowhere does it say the Great Crowd are on earth in Revelation 7 and 19. Gods people will eventually be on earth as per chapter 21 and 22, where Holy Jerusalem descends to earth.

Anyway, I have actually explained this in detail in other posts. Its getting tiring.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the separation. It just means they were raptured in separate events.
 
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