Viker
Häxan
What are it's tenets?
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Which Religion has Killed the Most...
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
Viker
Häxan
Both killed for their own causes which do not adequately represent either atheism or theism. One used principles and policies that were believed to uphold socialism/communism, the other used "Catholic doctrine" of the era as a justification but was every bit as politically motivated as the former.
It doesn't matter, for me, the numbers. People suffered and died over what could be considered misinterpretation or misrepresentation.
If humanity tends to fight a lot, I would suppose a guidance that guides regarding warfare, peace, and the various situations humans can find themselves in that respect is actually needed. A God that doesn't going into the subject and establish the principle of peace and war, is dooming mankind.
We need the guidance. Now providing that guidance, doesn't guarantee we will follow it, but if God does not, that he is partially to blame just as we expect everyone to do their part in establishing peace and justice.
The Quran contains a lot of verses about peace and warfare, because, it's the main thing God is concerned about. To establish and maintain the peace. There is a whole political paradigm of the Quran and God's kingship and authority is linked to his chosen guiding leaders.
The martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a) is a catalyst to bring justice to the world. It's a reminder the best of humans will always carry the brunt of injustice and carry the flag of justice regardless of what they bear in suffering in that respect.
Something to think about. If Quran prophecies that most likely that Ali (a), Fatima (a), Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) would be oppressed and the remaining Imams (a), why does Quran vest them with the authority? Investigating how the chosen ones were treated in the past per Quran and the suffering Mohammad (s) himself went through, why would he want his daughter, his cousin, and grandson and grand daughter all to suffer?
The Quran alludes a lot to the probability that Mohammad's (s) family would be rejected and no where is there a hint of a guarantee of nation remaining guided. So it can't be to establish monarchy, since, Quran predicts it as unlikely to occur in it's future prophecies.
We need the guidance. Now providing that guidance, doesn't guarantee we will follow it, but if God does not, that he is partially to blame just as we expect everyone to do their part in establishing peace and justice.
The Quran contains a lot of verses about peace and warfare, because, it's the main thing God is concerned about. To establish and maintain the peace. There is a whole political paradigm of the Quran and God's kingship and authority is linked to his chosen guiding leaders.
The martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a) is a catalyst to bring justice to the world. It's a reminder the best of humans will always carry the brunt of injustice and carry the flag of justice regardless of what they bear in suffering in that respect.
Something to think about. If Quran prophecies that most likely that Ali (a), Fatima (a), Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) would be oppressed and the remaining Imams (a), why does Quran vest them with the authority? Investigating how the chosen ones were treated in the past per Quran and the suffering Mohammad (s) himself went through, why would he want his daughter, his cousin, and grandson and grand daughter all to suffer?
The Quran alludes a lot to the probability that Mohammad's (s) family would be rejected and no where is there a hint of a guarantee of nation remaining guided. So it can't be to establish monarchy, since, Quran predicts it as unlikely to occur in it's future prophecies.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That doesn't matter. People will make the same claim for almost any religion with a violent history. The question was what did people do in the name of their religion. Not, what does their religion teach
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
So what? Stalin killed in the name of communism. Not atheism.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Communism is an atheist philosophy. It is antagonistic to religion.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Not necessarily. Yes, Marx was an atheist and advocated for it heavily but there is no reason that one has to be an atheist.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
According to communism, religion is the opiate of the people. This is why communist governments always have policies designed to stamp out religion.
Viker
Häxan
But that is still just communism. Atheism doesn't require a communist party member card to be considered an atheist.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Look Viker, one standard for everyone. No preferential treatment for atheists. Just like the fact that not all expressions of religion are violent doesn't excuse the use of religion to bully and kill, the fact that not all expressions of atheism are not violent doesn't excuse the fact that one version of atheism, Communism, doesn't bully and kill. One standard.
Unfettered
A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
There is a connection: abandonment of, indifference to, or ignorance of truth.
You’re exactly right!
So what happened?? It seems Christianity got “hijacked”. Early on…
Paul said at Acts 20:29,30…”I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
Notice, not decades later. Paul said, “after I go away.”
At 2 Peter 3:15,16, Peter wrote that “some things” in Paul’s “letters” “are hard to understand,” and already some congregation members “are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
So again, we have confirmation from another apostle, that hijacking of Christianity had already begun.
One more verification is from the Apostle John, who wrote @ 3 John 1:9,10. He said there was someone in the congregation who apparently had some authority, and he was “malicious” and trying to take over.
There are other examples, but it really should be no big surprise…. If as the Bible states, there is an enemy of “truth” (John 8:44), and he actually is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31;14:30), then what *started out* as a truthful religion, would be a target to corrupt. And now there’s supposedly over 30,000 variations?!
Satan has been quite successful! But this doesn’t make *original* Christianity wrong. Only the myriad corrupted versions of it that have strayed from Christ’s statement at John 13:35… “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”
Take care, my cousin.
What about human sacrifices to the God of war, on the altar of politics? Religion has been involved & influenced much of that.
Just rhetorical.
Viker
Häxan
Communism has often been atheistic. It is not a version or offshoot of atheism. One does not require the other. A person's atheistic position is not going to directly lead them to communism. If so, I guess we could refer to Ayn Rand as a communist. All communism entails is a social, political and economic philosophy. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any and all deities. Communism has mostly an anti-religion stance.
Example: Stalin was a self professed socialist/communist. His atrocities were carried out on behalf of that profession. He just so happened to claim to be an atheist.
Example: Ayn Rand developed her own philosophy, objectivism. She advocated self reliance and even laissez-faire capitalism (opposite of Marxist-Leninism & Stalin). She just so happened to be an atheist.
Atheism caused neither to profess their separate beliefs or positions. They did nothing on behalf of atheism for the sake of atheism.
Makes me wonder. Let's tally up the death toll of capitalism and blame it on various religions that seem to support or endorse it.
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PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Communism is not just atheistic. It's actually anti-theism. Theistic religion is one of its main enemies.
Augustus
…
That’s a bit like saying Osama bin Laden was a jihadi who just so happened to claim to believe in god.
Simply believing in god doesn’t make folk become jihadis, but jihadis believing in god is not simply a coincidence.
Belief or disbelief in gods can play a key role in a broader ideology.
Atheism played a key role in Soviet Communist ideology, and communism ultimately required the eradication of all religions and religious belief.
Viker
Häxan
Atheism is not a belief system or a philosophy. Communism is. And it is typically anti-religion. Atheism is a byproduct not a motivation or platform to build on for a communist. There have been Christian Marxists and various religious sympathizers for communism. So, it's still that any thing carried out by communists is for that cause not for atheism. Franco was a Roman Catholic, does that mean Catholicism is culpable for his fascist excesses?
If so. Then I guess we can CAN and possibly should hold Christianity accountable for abuses and atrocities committed under Capitalism?
Bin Laden did what he did claiming to be on the side of God/Allah and used his Islamic understanding as a justification. Was he correct? I don't know, probably not. Guess what, he liked him some capitalism, too.
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PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Anti-theism is central to Communism. I lived in a Communist country. Believe me, Communism wasn't very friendly to religious people...I am providing a link to the Wikipedia entry on Communism. It is very long, and quite comprehensive. But please, do me a favour, and search that entry for "atheism" or "atheist" to get an idea of how very central to Communism atheism actually was. You will find, I think, that is really is an afterthought in the grand scheme of Communism.
Communism - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Read The Communist Manifesto. Their goal was to get rid of family, religion and property.
"All religions so far have been the expression of historical stages of development of individual peoples or groups of peoples. But communism is the stage of historical development which
makes all existing religions superfluous and brings about their disappearance."
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Augustus
…
It’s not a byproduct, it was a fundamental principle in the development of the philosophy. it certainly was something that was built on from various factions emerging from the Enlightenment, French Revolution, Young Hegelians, Marxists, Leninists, etc.
Beliefs don’t exist in a vacuum but as part of a nexus that influences our overall worldview.
To accept this fact is not to “blame” atheism (I’m an atheist), but simply to acknowledge reality.
Some people want to make out that Soviet atheism was no more meaningful than Hitler having a moustache, being vegetarian or liking dogs.
Accepting both atheism and theism have been important parts of violent ideologies is not the same as saying they are “culpable” for x, y and z.