Which one is a Cult? A or B?

[metis]

Paul warned not to let any man spoil you through philosophy. He said the fullness of the Godhead dwelled in Messiah bodily. Colossians 2:8-9 (It's too bad people won't listen to what the word of God says.)

All that talk of essence is just man made doctrine, which makes it worthless. If it was truth it would be found somewhere in the scriptures. It would have been taught by the apostles.

You simply do not understand much about theology and theological terminology, and until you do all you will be doing is jumping from one uninformed idea after another.

I have no patience for those who strut around claiming to know but don't have the background to do anything more than barely scratch the surface. "Theology" is a science whereas one can get a ph.d. in it, thus is not just picking up your handy-dandy Bible with no serious educational background in it and being able to pick up and understand certain concepts. Much like in medicine, there is terminology that may not be understood by one who does not have that background. I am far from being an expert, but I took classes in it years ago and have done tons of reading for over five decades now.

IOW, let me recommend you s-t-u-d-y, and then maybe come back and then we can possibly have a serious discussion. Sorry to be so abrupt, but my patience sometimes wears thin.

Take care.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

OK, so when Jesus said he would send the holy spirit, how does that work? In other words, did he send "God the Father"? (P.S. I don't believe that God is a combination unit of 3 equal persons, just so you know.)

So this image prayed to ?? -- the real thing?? (Not an image?)

I think the problem is you don't accept or understand that the Messiah was God dwelling in a human body. He poured out his holy Spirit after he ascended.

Who do you say sent the holy spirit? - the Father as in John 14:26 or was it the Son as in John 15:26 ?

When he prayed, it was the flesh crying out to the Spirit. The flesh was weak and was still subject to all the requirements of the law. In order to be that perfect sacrifice the flesh needed the help of the Spirit. The Spirit was what was God. The flesh was a body God was dwelling in to sacrifice.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You simply do not understand much about theology and theological terminology, and until you do all you will be doing is jumping from one uninformed idea after another.

I have no patience for those who strut around claiming to know but don't have the background to do anything more than barely scratch the surface. "Theology" is a science whereas one can get a ph.d. in it, thus is not just picking up your handy-dandy Bible with no serious educational background in it and being able to pick up and understand certain concepts. Much like in medicine, there is terminology that may not be understood by one who does not have that background. I am far from being an expert, but I took classes in it years ago and have done tons of reading for over five decades now.

IOW, let me recommend you s-t-u-d-y, and then maybe come back and then we can possibly have a serious discussion. Sorry to be so abrupt, but my patience sometimes wears thin.

Take care.

Sorry but the concepts you are presenting are NOT in the Bible. Which means they are not true.

I will stick with what the apostles taught. The ones God chose, then taught, and then told to teach all the world what he had taught them.

 

[YoursTrue]

You simply do not understand much about theology and theological terminology, and until you do all you will be doing is jumping from one uninformed idea after another.

I have no patience for those who strut around claiming to know but don't have the background to do anything more than barely scratch the surface. "Theology" is a science whereas one can get a ph.d. in it, thus is not just picking up your handy-dandy Bible with no serious educational background in it and being able to pick up and understand certain concepts. Much like in medicine, there is terminology that may not be understood by one who does not have that background. I am far from being an expert, but I took classes in it years ago and have done tons of reading for over five decades now.

IOW, let me recommend you s-t-u-d-y, and then maybe come back and then we can possibly have a serious discussion. Sorry to be so abrupt, but my patience sometimes wears thin.

Take care.

Members of the various religions may have ph.d.'s in religious studies.. I am pretty sure that religious teachers and scholars who are Jewish and have ph.d.'s in religion do not teach that God is a trinity, with Jesus being equal to the Father and the Son.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think the problem is you don't accept or understand that the Messiah was God dwelling in a human body. He poured out his holy Spirit after he ascended.

Who do you say sent the holy spirit? - the Father as in John 14:26 or was it the Son as in John 15:26 ?

When he prayed, it was the flesh crying out to the Spirit. The flesh was weak and was still subject to all the requirements of the law. In order to be that perfect sacrifice the flesh needed the help of the Spirit. The Spirit was what was God. The flesh was a body God was dwelling in to sacrifice.

So again, and of course, Metis might like to get involved, but I don't know...when Jesus prayed, he prayed to the Father in heaven, didn't he? If Jesus was God dwelling in a human body, you have to ask yourself, why did he pray to the Father in heaven?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So again, and of course, Metis might like to get involved, but I don't know...when Jesus prayed, he prayed to the Father in heaven, didn't he? If Jesus was God dwelling in a human body, you have to ask yourself, why did he pray to the Father in heaven?

I have already answered why he prayed. Sorry if you are unable to understand the explanation. It is something God has to let someone see. Matthew 11:25-27

FYI - I wasn't saying the eternal Spirit doesn't also fill the heavens and the earth.

Why do you want Metis involved since you don't believe his view either? I think Metis believes in the Trinity while we don't. Whereas I believe the Messiah was the one and only God manifest in the flesh. And you believe the Messiah was just a man. Please let me know if any of these statements are not accurate?

 

[metis]

I think Metis believes in the Trinity while we don't.

Actually I don't-- but I don't say it's wrong either. It's a theological construct that is virtually impossible to prove nor disprove, thus it is what it is. As a scientist, I need objective evidence, but in this matter there is none one way or another.

The problem I have with some people on this is that they don't understand the concept, aren't interesting in learning about it, and then misportraying what it actually does say. The key for them is to understand the concept of "essence" that's used in this formulation.

IOW, from the Catholic point of view, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God. The importance of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is that they are of God, as Jesus said that he and the Father are one for one example. If one understands "essence", this makes sense. If not, then there's a logistical problem.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Actually I don't-- but I don't say it's wrong either. It's a theological construct that is virtually impossible to prove nor disprove, thus it is what it is. As a scientist, I need objective evidence, but in this matter there is none one way or another.

The problem I have with some people on this is that they don't understand the concept, aren't interesting in learning about it, and then misportraying what it actually does say. The key for them is to understand the concept of "essence" that's used in this formulation.

IOW, from the Catholic point of view, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God. The importance of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is that they are of God, as Jesus said that he and the Father are one for one example. If one understands "essence", this makes sense. If not, then there's a logistical problem.

No need for us to debate or discuss it if you don't even know for sure what you believe.

But it appears you are defending the Catholic position with the concept of "essence". My point is: Being of the same "essence" is not a scriptural concept to begin with. Because it is not mentioned in the scriptures.

The Messiah also said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. God was dwelling in that body. Colossians 2:9

 

[YoursTrue]

I have already answered why he prayed. Sorry if you are unable to understand the explanation. It is something God has to let someone see. Matthew 11:25-27

FYI - I wasn't saying the eternal Spirit doesn't also fill the heavens and the earth.

Why do you want Metis involved since you don't believe his view either? I think Metis believes in the Trinity while we don't. Whereas I believe the Messiah was the one and only God manifest in the flesh. And you believe the Messiah was just a man. Pleasel let me know if any of these statements are not accurate?

So God in the flesh has to pray to God the spirit?
Jesus, if you remember, said he was going to HIS GOD AND FATHER. Jesus has a God. Yes, it matters what people believe about God. It matters to God, and also how He is worshipped. Jesus demonstrated that he was God's SON, the only-begotten one.
Jesus perfectly represented the Father. Adam could have done so, if he were obedient, but he was not. Jesus, not Adam, died and his sacrifice was accepted by God, his Father.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So God in the flesh has to pray to God the spirit?
Jesus, if you remember, said he was going to HIS GOD AND FATHER. Jesus has a God. Yes, it matters what people believe about God. It matters to God, and also how He is worshipped. Jesus demonstrated that he was God's SON, the only-begotten one.

God was dwelling in a fleshly body. It had to be flesh to be able to die. The Spirit was the God of that flesh.

Now let me ask some questions and you tell me what you believe about the Son.

Was he just a man or was he God?
How was he before Abraham?
Did he exist before he was born?
If he wasn't God, why did he let people worship him?
Why did Thomas declare him to be his God?

 

[YoursTrue]

No need for us to debate or discuss it if you don't even know for sure what you believe.

But it appears you are defending the Catholic position with the concept of "essence". My point is: Being of the same "essence" is not a scriptural concept to begin with. Because it is not mentioned in the scriptures.

The Messiah also said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. God was dwelling in that body. Colossians 2:9

That scripture has to be taken in context. No man has seen God. Moses could not see God. But Jesus was one with the Father, it doesn't mean he was the father or equal to him. I know this may be a tough concept for some to get, but it's true, just like a husband and wife are one. They are not one person, but a unit. Sometimes a marriage breaks up, Jesus always stayed faithful to his heavenly Father, he was always 'one' with Him.

 

[YoursTrue]

God was dwelling in a fleshly body. It had to be flesh to be able to die.

Now you tell me what you believe about the Son and let me ask some questions.
Was he just a man or was he God?
How was he before Abraham?
Did he exist before he was born?

Sorry, God does not have to die in any sense. Not his flesh, and not his spirit. Jesus was a man. Not just any man, but a very special man. His father remained in heaven, Jesus, his Son, was born as a baby to Mary. Yes, the Son of God was in heaven before he came to the earth. John 1:1

I think the problem is you don't accept or understand that the Messiah was God dwelling in a human body. He poured out his holy Spirit after he ascended.

Who do you say sent the holy spirit? - the Father as in John 14:26 or was it the Son as in John 15:26 ?

When he prayed, it was the flesh crying out to the Spirit. The flesh was weak and was still subject to all the requirements of the law. In order to be that perfect sacrifice the flesh needed the help of the Spirit. The Spirit was what was God. The flesh was a body God was dwelling in to sacrifice.

So then to whom did Jesus pray? Why would God, dwelling in a human body, need to pray to God the spirit, especially if they were equal. Let's take one point at a time. So would you say God the Son was equal while in the flesh to God the Father? If so, why bring in the flesh as if that impeded him in power and equality to God the father in heaven, before we get into a discussion about the holy spirit. Jesus, as a man, a very special man, spent much time praying.

 

[YoursTrue]

God was dwelling in a fleshly body. It had to be flesh to be able to die.

Now you tell me what you believe about the Son and let me ask some questions.
Was he just a man or was he God?
How was he before Abraham?
Did he exist before he was born?

Sorry, God does not have to die in any sense. Not his flesh, and not his spirit. Jesus was a man. Not just any man, but a very special man. His father remained in heaven, Jesus, his Son, was born as a baby to Mary. Yes, the Son of God was in heaven before he came to the earth. John 1:1

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Sorry, God does not have to die in any sense. Not his flesh, and not his spirit. Jesus was a man. Not just any man, but a very special man. His father remained in heaven, Jesus, his Son, was born as a baby to Mary. Yes, the Son of God was in heaven before he came to the earth. John 1:1

So then to whom did Jesus pray? Why would God, dwelling in a human body, need to pray to God the spirit, especially if they were equal. Let's take one point at a time. So would you say God the Son was equal while in the flesh to God the Father? If so, why bring in the flesh as if that impeded him in power and equality to God the father in heaven, before we get into a discussion about the holy spirit. Jesus, as a man, a very special man, spent much time praying.

You used John 1:1 to prove you think the Son was in heaven before he came to earth? But yet you are not accepting the very verse you sent saying the word was God.

Acts 20:28 ...to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

You didn't respond about why Thomas declared him to be his God. John 20:28

You didn't respond about why the Messiah let people worship him.


You are asking your questions as if I am a Trinitarian. I never said anything about two persons being equal. The Spirit is greater than the flesh. You think it is two different persons - not me. I think it is flesh and Spirit involved. Flesh praying to the Spirit, not one person praying to another.

 

[YoursTrue]

You used John 1:1 to prove you think the Son was in heaven before he came to earth? But yet you are not accepting the very verse you sent saying the word was God.

Acts 20:28 ...to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

You didn't respond about why Thomas declared him to be his God. John 20:28

You didn't respond about why the Messiah let people worship him.


You are asking your questions as if I am a Trinitarian. I never said anything about two persons being equal. The Spirit is greater than the flesh. You think it is two different persons - not me. I think it is flesh and Spirit involved. Flesh praying to the Spirit, not one person praying to another.

Not all renderings say the Word was God. Anyway, the Word is Jesus, is it not? And the Word (Jesus as he was known on the earth) was, or had been -- WITH God, right?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Not all renderings say the Word was God. Anyway, the Word is Jesus, is it not? And the Word (Jesus as he was known on the earth) was, or had been -- WITH God, right?

No that's not correct to me. That is the take on the verse by most. But the word used in the Greek was logos, which actually means the plan or the idea or the concept. So what was in the beginning with God was his plan (or his word if you will). Here is a good example in Revelation 13:8 where it mentions the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Yet we know he wasn't actually slain until under the time of Pilate (26-36 AD). So it had to have been referring to what was in the mind and plan of God.

Now don't get me wrong. The plan involved the Messiah, and when the time was right God brought that part of the plan to fruition.

Why did you ignore all the questions I just asked you?

 

[YoursTrue]

You used John 1:1 to prove you think the Son was in heaven before he came to earth? But yet you are not accepting the very verse you sent saying the word was God.

Acts 20:28 ...to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

You didn't respond about why Thomas declared him to be his God. John 20:28

You didn't respond about why the Messiah let people worship him.


You are asking your questions as if I am a Trinitarian. I never said anything about two persons being equal. The Spirit is greater than the flesh. You think it is two different persons - not me. I think it is flesh and Spirit involved. Flesh praying to the Spirit, not one person praying to another.

You use the term that I wouldn't necessary use, that of "two different persons." These two persons, the Father and the Son are not different in the sense we might think of being different. As Jesus said, he is one with the Father. But there is the Father, and there is the Son. Going back to a question you asked about sending the holy spirit, here is what John 15:26 says, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:" Jesus said he will send that Comforter (the spirit of truth) from the Father. Of course, Jesus and the Father worked harmoniously with the same goal. The Scriptures are inspired by God, also known as his Word, the voice of God in effect, and they were sometimes personified as though speaking with divine authority (just as God’s holy spirit was personified by Jesus, who taught and bore witness [Joh 14:26; 15:26).

 

[YoursTrue]

No that's not correct to me. That is the take on the verse by most. But the word used in the Greek was logos, which actually means the plan or the idea or the concept. So what was in the beginning with God was his plan (or his word if you will). Here is a good example in Revelation 13:8 where it mentions the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Yet we know he wasn't actually slain until under the time of Pilate (26-36 AD). So it had to have been referring to what was in the mind and plan of God.

Now don't get me wrong. The plan involved the Messiah, and when the time was right God brought that part of the plan to fruition.

Why did you ignore all the questions I just asked you?

OK, I addressed one question you asked. I really try not to jump around, so hopefully we can stick to John 14:26 and 15:26 that you asked about regarding who sent the holy spirit.

 

[metis]

But it appears you are defending the Catholic position with the concept of "essence". My point is: Being of the same "essence" is not a scriptural concept to begin with. Because it is not mentioned in the scriptures.

The word "essence" is not used in the scripture but an interpretation of what's in the scriptures, which is not to say it is correct however. Thus, not all "Trinitarians" believe exactly the same on this.

Which languages are used in which time periods they may have been written in must be taken into consideration of one wants to do serious theology. And there are many such theological words for differing concepts, some of which do occur in scripture and some that don't. Thus, just because words like "allegory" and "essence" and "apostolic succession" don't appear in scripture doesn't mean they don't exist. Anyone whom has read or gotten onto any serious theological [biblical] studies well know what these words mean, whether they agree or disagree with them.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

OK, I addressed one question you asked. I really try not to jump around, so hopefully we can stick to John 14:26 and 15:26 that you asked about regarding who sent the holy spirit.

Ok - But did you compare the verses? Yes John 15:26 says whom I will send unto you from the Father. But then John 14:26 says whom the Father will send

You have a problem here because you say they are two different individuals.

You use the term that I wouldn't necessary use, that of "two different persons." These two persons, the Father and the Son are not different in the sense we might think of being different. As Jesus said, he is one with the Father. But there is the Father, and there is the Son. Going back to a question you asked about sending the holy spirit, here is what John 15:26 says, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:" Jesus said he will send that Comforter (the spirit of truth) from the Father. Of course, Jesus and the Father worked harmoniously with the same goal. The Scriptures are inspired by God, also known as his Word, the voice of God in effect, and they were sometimes personified as though speaking with divine authority (just as God’s holy spirit was personified by Jesus, who taught and bore witness [Joh 14:26; 15:26).

First you say one is a man, and the other is God. Then you say they aren't different in the sense we think of as different. How can I even discuss it with you when you flip flop around so much?

You say the Messiah is just a man. Then you ignored several verses I sent showing he is God.
Such as:

John 20:28 where Thomas called him his God

Acts 20:28 - feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.