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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The quotes from Paul are not the "gospels", from the original apostles, which were directed at the Jews, and the lost sheep of Israel, but the epistles of the Jewish Pharisee Paul. The epistles would be on the order of your Talmud, the writing of the scribes. Paul was the "staff" "Favor" of Zechariah 11:7-10, who was to "shepherd" the "flock doomed to slaughter" and "break my covenant witch I had made with the peoples", which would be the covenant made with Abraham, Circumcision.
     
    #201 2ndpillar, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Call it what you will -- it is all mere invention and your interpretations predicated on it are invariably wrong. See how that works?
     
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  3. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Ιησού

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    Ignorance is bliss?

    The two different Greek words translated as Lamb,
    apply to the two circumstances of the one&only Lamb.

    Pre-Sacrifice, the Lamb

    Esaias 53:7 "And he, because of his affliction, opens not his mouth: he was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth."
    Septuagint: αμνός, a lamb.

    John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto Him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

    Strong's Concordance
    "amnos: a lamb
    Original Word: ἀμνός, οῦ, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: amnos
    Phonetic Spelling: (am-nos')
    Definition: a lamb
    Usage: a lamb (as a type of innocence, and with sacrificial connotation)."

    Post-Sacrifice, the Lamb

    Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

    Strong's Concordance
    "arnion: a lamb
    Original Word: ἀρνίον, ου, τό
    Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
    Transliteration: arnion
    Phonetic Spelling: (ar-nee'-on)
    Definition: lamb
    Usage: (originally: a little lamb, but diminutive force was lost), a lamb."

    (1) The Lamb of the sacrifice, (2) risen in power and glory.

    Revelation 1:18 "I [am] He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
    Revelation 5:12 "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."
    ________________________
    "Surely I come quickly."
    "Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
    --Revelation 22:20
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, that quote at the bottom of your posts is also important. There are at a couple of places in Revelation that uses the name, "Jesus". So it would seem difficult for someone to say that it is not Jesus that is the one coming back. Other things like, King of Kings, Lamb, Wonderful Counselor even The Christ can be made by the Baha'is to mean a different person, their person. But, with that last quote... who is it that is saying "I come quickly"? John certainly thinks it is Jesus.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Hello again, my long lost friend... :)
    That would depend upon what those verses say and the context in which they are used. Which ones are those?
    Revelation 22:20-21 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    He does think it is Jesus but note that this is a supplication, not a prophecy. In other words, it is John “hoping” that Jesus will come. The problem is that Jesus has not come back... How long are Christians going to wait? Some have stopped waiting and they are still Christians.

    Baha’u’llah is not the only reason that it cannot be the same man Jesus coming back. For one thing, Jesus never promised to come back. Jesus said that his work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, 11); but also the physical body of Jesus cannot come back because physical bodies die, they do not rise up into the sky and return on a cloud over 2000 years later. So it has to be another Person who was coming, one who fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.
     
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  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The First paragraph and the Last paragraph in Revelation are blatant forgeries; its easy to see the sticky tape and glue...

    He bows in front of the Angel in Revelation 19:10, and then in Revelation 22:8-9, he does the same thing in the Throne room of Heaven. :eek:

    Most of Revelation refers to the Lamb, a New Name, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Many Crowns; yet if we examine 'jesus' it is used in a past contexts, those who 'keep the word of jesus', etc.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was the Lamb of God, but He was not the Lamb spoken of in the Book of Revelation. It does not really matter who the Lamb was/is.... Jesus Christ is never coming back to earth, that is the only thing that matters, and that matters because Christians have rejected God when they rejected the return of Christ that has already occurred.

    Matthew 24:27 or as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Matthew 24:36-44 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Whenever it speaks of the return, the Book of Revelation refers to Baha’u’llah, since He was the return of Christ, the Comforter and the Spirit of truth promised by Jesus, the One who has fulfilled all the Promises of Jesus and the Old Testament prophecies for the coming of the Messiah.

    What Christians believe about the return of the same Jesus who lived over 2000 years ago on a cloud is not going to make Jesus return. Jesus is in heaven and that is where He will be after you die and go to heaven. You may see Him there if He chooses to see you. At that time, Jesus will ask you why you rejected Him when he returned to earth in the person of Baha’u’llah....

    You see, all the Manifestations of God are but one Person, One Spirit of God... They are all one soul, in different human bodies, so if you reject One of Them, you reject all of Them.

    “The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 50

    “It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    There is no concept of "the Comforter" or "Spirit of Truth" anywhere other than the false Gospel of John, and it is a purposefully put lie, as the Holy Spirit has existed throughout the Tanakh.

    The idea Baha’u’llah cites much of the deception as true, means he didn't get taught by God about prophecy, and the Messiah has to understand these prophecies.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  9. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Ιησού

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    And John also says Jesus is the one who is and was dead and is alive forever. Jesus, in the first chapter, is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last. Jesus is He of the house of David who shuts and no one opens and opens and nobody can shut... the keys of hell are handed off to the dragon when he is permanently kicked out of heaven, rather than having the ability to accuse the followers of Christ on a daily basis... those keys are in the hand of the angel who binds Satan for 1000 years. Killing her children with death means sending them to Sheol... because that rider has been given those keys.

    Many people think that the war in heaven has already happened, but it can't have, since the outcome is the last woe of a set of three... and because the fact is that there will be no place for him and his angels once the Bride has been gathered as the harvest. Jezebel is still not on her bed of adultery, because the great tribulation which will kill her children with death... which I'm taking to be the rider on the horse with Sheol following... has not yet started. Revelation is, like all Prophecy, not a single line... it weaves back and forth between what has been and what has not yet come to pass.

    In addition, Jesus says He is... as in 'exists'. Jesus has already returned a couple of times... once to give the Holy Spirit, in John 20; and once to tell John what John was then able to bear, because he then has the Holy Spirit, having been given Him in John 20.
     
    #209 OtherSheep, Nov 14, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Or it was put there as a test for Christians and the rest of humanity so they would have to figure out who or what the Comforter and the Spirit of truth really are.
    Baha’u’llah was a Representative of God among men so He knew the secrets and mysteries in the Tanakh and the Bible.

    “Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endurethfor ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

    According to Daniel 12, the “book” was to be unsealed at the time of the end.

    Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    Many shall run to and fro because they do not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge will be increased at the time of the end.

    That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel:for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”

    Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

    The "book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

    We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand who and what the prophecies in the Bible and the Tanakh refer to. Baha’u’llah explained much of the symbolism in the Bible, what words such as clouds, moon, sun, heaven, hell, and satan refer to. He also explained who the Father, the Lord of Hosts, the Comforter and the Spirit of truth were. Abdu’l-Baha, one of Baha’u’llah’s appointed interpreters, went into more detail in explaining certain chapters and verses in the Bible in Some Answered Questions.
     
  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    So tho we can systematically show John is made up by the many contradictions within it, and that the idea presented of the Holy Spirit being sent is stupid; we're still going to use a made up illogical idea, as the Quran and Baha'ullah, etc try to claim it as their own. :confused:

    We have to build a house of theological cards on solid foundations; if we don't we're going to find we fail. :(
    OK prove it, where does Baha'ullah define what the 'Snare' and 'Bed of Adultery' are in detail? As literally only the Messiah should know that as prophesied.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    And the other gospels contain no contradictions? I am sure there are many people who would be willing to point those out but I do not have time to analyze older scriptures in depth.

    It is just too bad that Christians do not “like” the idea that the Comforter and the Spirit of truth were titles given to Muhammad and Baha’u’llah, who brought the Holy Spirit from God to humanity. This is clearly what makes the most sense, in light of all the scriptures.
    I guess you mean we have to build the house based solely upon the Tanakh and the New Testament, ignoring any Word of God that came after that, ignoring scriptures that are clearly more authentic than either the Tanakh or the New Testament? Do you consider that logical? I consider it more logical that the newer scriptures supersede and point out issues that were contained in the older scriptures. Indeed, that is what they have done in many instances.
    Why do you consider things such as these so important? Of course Baha’u’llah knew what those referred to but Baha’u’llah did not spend much time referring to the older scriptures. As He had much more important things to do He considered it a mistake to dwell on records of the past religions.

    “Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 63
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Everything in this world contains contradictions; it is a world of Maya (Delusion), which is down near Hell, so of course there are errors...

    Yet that doesn't stop us building a case for what was said between the solid evidence (Isaiah 8:16).
    If Muhammad and Baha'u'llah use a false text to show us they're not prophets, and Christians being upset as they're also not understanding these are false texts, just shows why the world is confused.
    The way to be the most logical with the data, is to assess what came first, and what are the foundational understandings that other religious text later have built on... If a context starts earlier, we don't overwrite contexts by later ideas.
    OK so having read the many religious texts first as foundational material, you've then moved on to the Baha'i texts after; so as to assess they're correctly built on top of each other (exegesis), and not the other way around (eisegesis)?

    Most modern religious traditions when compared to the texts globally have muddled prophetic statements; by rewriting prophecy to fit what is pleasing to the ears, rather than what was originally stated.
    Because the things prophesied means the Tribulation is soon, and mankind is about to destroy its self because of these things...

    All the fake religions built on top of it, that don't understand, have made it worse to fix (Christianity, Islam, Rabbinic Judaism, Baha'i, Mormonism, Seventh-day Adventist, Satanism, etc), thus the whole world will end as we know it.

    I'd explain the prophecies in detail as an Arch-Angel sent before it; yet when people are convinced of presuppositions more than data, there isn't much point, as they just dig their heals in.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Muhammad and Baha’u’llah do not need the gospel of John to demonstrate who they are. They have their own scriptures that demonstrate this, as well as their Personhoods and what they did on their missions.
    Nothing has been overwritten. Referring to the scriptures of the older religions, Shoghi Effendi wrote that the Baha’i Faith...

    “readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100

    However, the Revelation of Baha’u’llah stands on its own merit. It does not need to be “proven” to be true by looking at older scriptures, notwithstanding the fact that it fulfills their prophecies.

    All people attach their own personal interpretations to scripture, so they will never agree on what prophecies actually mean. People have made their Messiah in their own image, so unless He fits that image they will never believe the Messiah has come, which is ALWAYS according to their personal interpretation of the prophecies.

    For this reason, trying to use prophecies as a way to prove or disprove Baha’u’llah is a losing battle. Baha’u’llah explained how we would recognize Him and He did not mention verifying prophecies because He knew that would not work.

    “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth.This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

    The best proof of Jesus was His Own Self and the testimony is His Revelation, not the prophecies that were fulfilled by His coming. The same holds true for Baha’u’llah.

    Attempting to understand the newer scriptures by reading the older scriptures is like trying to put new wine into old wine sacs... It just won’t work.

    Luke 5:37-38 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

    Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    By comparing older scriptures to newer scriptures, one will always prefer the older ones if those are what they are familiar with.

    Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
    They are built (revealed) the way God revealed them and recorded as such. I do not question how religious texts are revealed because that is above my capacity and it is not a job God has assigned to me. Moreover, I do not need to read the older religious texts in order to understand the Baha’i Writings. It is the other way around; people need to read the Baha’i Writings in order to understand the older religious texts, which are mass confusion. This is precisely why Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”
    How could they rewrite original prophecy as recorded?
    Many Christians believe that the tribulation is coming soon, but they have been saying this for decades. It may or may not come, but the way to prepare is not to analyze prophecies and try to get other people to agree with your analysis.
    So it is you alone who understands what is going to happen? I have certainly heard that before, from many Christians. Baha’is do not pretend to know what is going to happen or when, as Bahaullah did not reveal the specifics...

    “The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119
    So you alone understand the prophecies? So what is the point of even having a discussion on forums if you already know everything about the prophecies? I don’t suppose you think you are going to convince anyone that you alone have the right interpretations.

    I could say the same thing about people digging their heels in. Everyone is waiting for their own version of the Messiah and as long as people are sure they alone are right, there is no chance that they will recognize the real Messiah.
     
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  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Baha'is have a lot of the details from Revelation and Daniel worked out. All the years that add up to such and such and all that stuff. It gives me a headache, so I don't delve too deeply into any of it... just a few of the basic things in Revelation. Their big prophecy is the 1260 days, because it is easily converted into lunar years which fits into the exact time of the start of Islam and the coming of the Bab, the forerunner to Baha'u'llah. I've asked so many questions on their dates and who they say the beasts are, but they stay locked in to their interpretation.

    But, they have never mentioned this 1000 years. They make the "Three Woes" into Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah rather than three disastrous judgements that are leading up to the return of Christ. They make every reference to 1260 days, 3 1/2 days and forty two months into the same thing, 1260 years leading up to the Bab. So, by following their own way of dealings with time prophecies, 1000 years should be converted into days then back into years, which is a lot of years. I can't wait to see how they interpret that one.

    Anyway, have you read some of their comments on their interpretation of Revelation? If so, what do you think of some of the things they've come up with?
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    As I posted to someone here recently, prophecies are not the best proof of a Prophet and one reason is because they can be so easily misinterpreted and/or they can be interpreted to mean more than one thing. Baha'u'llah never said that prophecies were proof of His station... This is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence and proof of His station:

    “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
     
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Prophecies and concepts can be overwritten by people's presuppositions; rather than building on the data and creating precedents.

    Thus it is like wearing colored spectacles, our perceptions are changed by the glasses (presuppositions) we choose to use; personally always work hard to remove all biases as much as possible, before even starting.

    Exegesis vs Eisegesis - Let the text explain its contexts Vs Putting a context into the text.
    This isn't right in the slightest; when Yeshua (H3444) and Yehoshua (H3091) are understood metaphorically in all contexts, we can see much of the Tanakh is about his coming...

    This prophetic line when properly understood; also makes it Baha'u'llah can not be the Messiah as he doesn't know what he is on about, neither does Muhammad...

    So the idea they've got no clue on Messianic prophecy, proves they're not who they say they are...

    Fine they might have been inspired; yet don't go around plagiarizing stuff that isn't true. - Can see why God foretold the deception, to see who pays attention.
    No they didn't, and the idea they've used a false texts that is purposely made up to discredit Yeshua, proves they're unworthy as wise prophets.
    The ultimate goal of the scriptures is to teach us wisdom, that we attain enlightenment to ascend past this plain of existence to be reunited with the Source...

    Playing favorites with religious data down here, isn't being logical... Best is to look for what is the wisest path between them all.
    What you're referring to is many people lead from beliefs (eisegesis), whereas with enough study of what the text actually says (exegesis), people would see it isn't optional if we accept the Messiah, yet if the Messiah accepts us...

    As the Messiah comes to remove all the wicked from the world, and leave it as the Garden of Eden, where only those who know God shall remain.
    Seeing if people can understand the prophecies based on a logical method, and if it is possible to relate it.
    There are 144,000 out of the whole of mankind who will understand Biblical prophecy (Revelation 14:3); we're always looking around for other souls who choose to be wise enough to question the text properly, and will give any free understanding if asked.
    You've said this a few times to me, like you're putting me in a Christian category... :confused:

    You do get Christianity was Established in Antioch, and given to Paul and Simon peter's ministry (Gospel about Death), with John being added after to support it...

    It is the Anti-Christ and Beast of Revelation, with it teaching an Abomination of Desolation (Defilement & Idolatry)...

    Personally stand against this, and trying to show some of the prophecies before the end of time.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #217 wizanda, Nov 17, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

    This is Paul saying that when Jesus comes back they will get a "glorified" body. Paul was lying? Was misinterpreted? Thought he was right but was wrong?

    1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

    Paul says that they turned away from an idol-worshipping false religion to the true religion. And that God raised Jesus from the dead. And Jesus will rescue them from the coming wrath. Same questions... Is Paul full of it?

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

    Paul saying that Jesus will be the coming back.

    2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    Peter saying he was an eyewitness to the majesty of Jesus and didn't invent clever stories about him. And that Jesus is coming back.

    Revelation 22:20-21 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

    I think that Abdul Baha says that "Saint John" wrote revelation. I, personally doubt who wrote it, but let's say John wrote it. Someone is talking to him. John is mistaken that it is Jesus. In fact, John sees all kinds of visions of the Lamb and a guy all glowing white on a white horse. Many verses imply that it is Jesus, but Baha'is make everything in Revelation about them. So who was showing John this vision? And how come John got it wrong thinking it was Jesus?
     
  19. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Other than mangling the translations of some of the words, Christians and Baha'is ignore the context of the chapter. Did Jesus do any of the rest of the things that this child would do? I don't think so. What was the purpose of the sign? Wasn't it to tell the king that if he would trust in God, and wait, that by the time the child reaches the age of knowing right from wrong, the problem with the other kings would be over. When did Jesus fulfill that?

    But, if Jesus is the fulfillment of that one verse, and that verse means that a child would be born from a virgin, what happened to the child that fulfilled the rest of the sign? He did all the other things except the verse about being born from a virgin, or was he virgin born also? No, Christian or Baha'i believes that? So they seem to just ignore the rest of the verses that say what will happen after the child is born... from the alleged virgin
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The false prophet Paul is already back in the form of his "unclean" "demon" spirit (Revelation 16:13-16). And no he, as in "our" lowly bodies, were not transformed at any time, for his body is supposedly buried outside of Rome, and according to Revelation 20:4-5, will remain buried another 1000 years after the coming of the son of man. His false gospel of grace/cross is an integral part of the "mark of the beast".
     
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