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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The proper interpretation of Isaiah 7:14 is "young maiden"/"young woman", not "virgin".

    ידלָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם א֑וֹת הִנֵּ֣ה הָֽעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמ֖וֹ עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל:
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    This is a blatant lie. Jesus Christ is not the Lord God. Jesus Christ cannot bring everything under his control, only God can do that. Jesus Christ is not going to transform any bodies into his glorified body because Jesus does not have a glorified body since Jesus never rose from the dead. They can eagerly await anything they want to but Jesus is not coming back to earth. He said so himself and yet Paul contradicts Him.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    Paul is full of crap. Sorry to be so blunt but this is an utter disgrace because it is a blatant lie. Jesus was not raised from the dead and Jesus is not coming to rescue anyone.
    Paul is full of crap. Jesus is not coming back to earth, ever. But thanks for posting all these verses because now I am beginning to understand why Christians believe that Jesus is coming back. However, please note that Jesus never promised to return to earth. There is not ONE verse in any of the gospels wherein Jesus promised to return. It was all a fabricated lie of the Church and the fact that Paul was complicit in promoting this lie says something about Paul. Do you really think this is a harmless mistake, one third of the population of the earth believing a lie? Think again.
    This does not say that Jesus is coming back. If you read the verse in context you will see that it is about the first coming of Jesus. There is no second coming of Jesus, the same man, because His body died and His soul ascended to heaven. It was His Spirit that was promised to return, not His body. Physical bodies do not live in heaven as there is no oxygen up there. :rolleyes:
    I have no idea because I am not very familiar with the Book of Revelation. Maybe that was explained in that book, Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
     
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree, this is what people do. However, biases exist according to what people already believe and they cannot be removed entirely.
    I disagree that the text explains itself, it just doesn’t. A book does not talk, it needs to be interpreted by people, and they will invariably introduce their biases.
    Maybe they were about His First Coming, but the prophecies are not the best proof of who Jesus was as a Person. Prophecies are just what people want to use to try to prove something, but they are not good proof because they can so easily be misinterpreted and they are interpreted differently by different people.

    Apparently, you base your entire belief system upon these prophecies, but take away these prophecies and what you think they mean and what do you have left?
    You are free to believe whatever you want to but that does not make it true. BOTH Muhammad and Baha’u’llah were Prophets/Messengers/Manifestations of God, and Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ and the Messiah. That was proven in this book: Thief in the Night

    Go ahead and try to prove that what is written in that book is not true. Good luck.

    The same Jesus who walked the earth over 2000 years ago is NOT coming back to earth again. He said so in John 17:4, 11 and just because you want to discredit that Gospel does mean it is discredited. Even if it was, Jesus never promised to return even once in any of the other Gospels, and the same Jesus is not coming back because Jesus did not rise from the grave or ascend to heaven. These are lies perpetrated by the Church and by Paul.
    That is a joke. Muhammad and Baha’u’llah did not use John to discredit Jesus and neither one of them discredited Jesus. They glorified Jesus.

    Jesus is not coming back to earth, period, NOT EVER. That is what people don’t want to hear but it is the truth. Jesus never promised to return, not once. Jesus is not alive in a physical body in heaven so Jesus cannot return to earth. Only the Spirit of Jesus can return from heaven in another Person and that is exactly what happened. Too bad people don’t like it but that does not change reality.
    True, but if we ignore the newer scriptures that is akin to turning away from God.
    I fully agree, and best to look for what God wants us to be looking at, since that has to be the wisest path, given God is All-Wise. God wants us to be looking at scriptures that have not been corrupted by the desires of a corrupt inclination.
    What the text actually says is different depending upon who is reading the text. Unless you are a Manifestation of God or His appointed interpreter you have no authority to interpret the text and say your interpretation is the one accurate interpretation.
    So do you actually believe that the world is going to be restored to the Garden of Eden by the Messiah? So much for interpretation of scripture.
    You mean your method.
    No, there are about 7 million who understand Biblical prophecy. They are called Baha’is. Nobody else knows. It is so very sad. Whether they will find out the Truth after they die is anyone’s best guess. They might not be given a second chance, especially if they were told over and over.
    How does John support the Gospel about Death?
    Interesting, I just posted the Baha’i interpretation of the abomination and desolation on another thread, for what it’s worth: #185 Trailblazer, Today at 1:09 PM
     
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    People write to record something to the best of their ability, and given enough investigation we should understand what they were trying to imply from analyzing their own context first, and then examined against their own knowledge base...

    Currently find quite a few religious people's method like, well if some people add ideas, we can do the same and will use our own commentaries presuppositions to define what the prophets were meaning, as we don't need to look at the prophets own contexts.
    The made up Gospel of John has jesus being the lamb of God, telling people to eat his flesh and drink his blood, that god sent him to die, etc...

    It basically gives power to Christianity, as it has a Pharisaic jesus that fits with Paul and Simon's ideologies.
    If we do the word searches in Esword Bible software, and understand a whole history book; then we'd realize that the 'Salvation' (H3444) from the Lord (YHVH), who shall become our King, isn't some slight character reference - the whole Tanakh is Yeshua speaking, and then becoming human.

    Thus from this character reference of prophetically speaking in parables, this character of YHVH/Yeshua is very distinct, and should know the Biblical prophecies.
    If someone is using something defamatory about someone as a standard of truth, they uphold the defamation at the same time.
    Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Psalms 118)
    God the CPU and Source of Reality, isn't contained in religious texts.
    Based on Zoroastrian, Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist, Hebraic, Islamic texts, and God telling me, it does seem highly likely that the world is cleansed by Holy Fire at the time of the Messiah, and restored to an Age of Enlightenment with just those worthy.
    Without all these prophecies we'd just have infinite perception, as we had before studying all this religious stuff...

    The Bible context is important, when we're considering things that fit within that Bible context...

    It is like having done the Bible jigsaw and knowing how it fits together, and you have pieces from your Baha'i jigsaw set, where you are trying to make them all fit together with sticky tape, scissors and glue; plus then get offended, when people are trying to show you how the original jigsaw puzzle fitted together.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #224 wizanda, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Not true. The OT is the product of the spirit of prophecy, and by that Spirit, it is understood, with the understanding that the "wicked"/lawless, will not understand (Daniel 12:10) & (Matthew 13:3).

    Matthew 23: 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
     
  6. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Ιησού

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    Jesus tells us what Revelation means within the pages of Revelation itself. That's why He says that book of prophecy is not sealed.
    But only the people who believe Jesus will understand the prophecy. People who follow worthless shepherds will never understand.
     
  7. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Ιησού

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    "And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, saying, 'Say ye, 'His disciples came by night, and stole Him while we slept.' And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.' So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day."--Matthew 28

    Don't have to wonder at all about TB.
     
  8. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Ιησού

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    John wrote his Gospel with the understanding given by the Holy Spirit:
    You seem not to understand John, and want to do away with him:
    If you had the same Spirit with which John wrote, that couldn't happen.
     
    #228 OtherSheep, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I do not understand how those verses are related to wondering about what I said. o_O
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    All Christians believe that they have the indwelt Holy Spirit but unless that Spirit contradicts itself that is logically impossible.
    Who has the authority to determine who is wicked and lawless and who is led by Spirit? o_O
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    By turning Daniel 12:10 around, it is apparent that the wicked/lawless do not understand. Apparently the lawless, have only the authority given to their leader, the beast with two horns like a lamb, Constantine, the instituter of the Roman church, who received his authority from the "dragon" Revelation 13:4. Apparently the Gentiles/nations, will come upon that truth after "the day of distress"/day of the LORD (Jeremiah 16:19). A little late, but just the same, there will be survivors, even from the nations (Zechariah 14:16-17), who will "worship the king" at "Jerusalem".
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like you have that all figured out. ;)
    I don't pretend to know what most of the Bible means but I know what some of it means. :)
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Here are a list of over 30 points where John directly contradicts the Synoptic Gospels, we can show it is purposely made up by the Sanhedrin to discredit Yeshua.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Good luck with that project. Nobody has ever understood the Bible and they never will unless they read the Baha’i Writings. Daniel 12 explained why.
    Thank for the information. I had no idea. I only know certain verses in John 14-17.
    If you mean it is about Jesus of the NT, I am sure Jews would disagree with you. Are all the Jews wrong about their own Tanakh?
    That is not Jesus saying that He, Jesus in the same body is going to return to earth. He that comes in the name of the Lord was Baha’u’llah, and in Him we saw the Spirit of Jesus. Baha’u’llah was the Lord of Hosts.

    “Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

    This attachment to the same man Jesus is a serious emotional problem people have. They just cannot give up the attachment and the fantasy that the same man Jesus is coming back to earth. Anyone can try to make the scriptures be about Jesus, that’s easy to do by misinterpreting them, but it will never be the same Jesus that returns because that impossible since His body is dead. The question is, why can’t people just face reality? The bodily resurrection and ascension never happened. Those were just stories people told. And Jesus never promised to return.
    No He isn’t, but His Will for humanity is in them.
    I won’t argue with that. But that does not mean it will look like the Garden of Eden. It will be a whole new world, the likes of which humanity has never seen before. Christians want it to be restored to the original, which I find rather comical. All these beliefs came about from misinterpreting scriptures, such a dangerous practice.

    About the cleansing...

    “Grieve thou not over those that have busied themselves with the things of this world, and have forgotten the remembrance of God, the Most Great. By Him Who is the Eternal Truth! The day is approaching when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 208
    Are you kidding? Nobody except God knows how the original jigsaw puzzle fit together. Why do we need to make the Revelation of Baha’u’llah fit into the Bible? You cannot fit new wine into old wine sacs. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah was never meant to “fit” into the Bible. It doesn’t have to. It is an entirely new Revelation from God. The Bible is not the standard by which to measure everything for all time. The arrogance of that belief is just too much to bear.

    Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

    Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
     
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  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yes of course, the Bible prophesied they'd be blinded to understanding this (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29), until the Messiah comes back after the Tribulation, and opens the eyes of those who have been chosen (Isaiah 35:5).
    The new name prophesied in the Tanakh and New Testament isn't Baha'u'llah... It is cryptically stipulated in the Tanakh, like Yeshua Elohim is (Isaiah 52:10), so is king Zion Elohim (Isaiah 52:7).
    You have a belief about Baha'u'llah, and you're doing anything to make it fit, regardless of evidence contrary to that understanding.
    With careful exegesis God made the Bible for us to be able to interpret it.
    Baha'u'llah is the one who used Biblical (and other religions) prophecy to make himself fit into their religious prophecy; therefore he should align with the concepts originally implied within these source texts else he is a fake, which systematically the Baha'i are proving without a shadow of a doubt.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Baha'u'llah fulfilled many of the Biblical prophecies because he was persecuted, taken prisoner and exiled.

    Funny way to fit yourself into prophecy. Mathematically it has to be not coincidence.

    In my opinion :)

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    They were wrong about Jesus because Jesus was the Messiah; He just was not and never will be the Messiah of the latter days... That was Baha’u’llah.
    No, the Bible prophecies all refer to the Glory of God. Baha’u’llah means Glory of God in Arabic. The name Baha’u’llah was in Arabic Bibles before they were pulled from circulation in 1870.
    You have a belief about Jesus, and you're doing anything to make it fit, regardless of evidence contrary to that understanding.

    All the evidence points to Baha’u’llah so I do not have to do anything to make it fit. It has already been done for me: Thief in the Night

    You can wait around for Jesus if you want to and you will have plenty of company.
    And you are the only one who knows how to interpret it, so says every Christian.

    No, Daniel said the book would be sealed up until the time of the end and before that people would run to and fro. The time of the end is AFTER the Messiah comes, not before.
    No, Baha'u'llah did not use Biblical (or any other religions) prophecies to make himself fit into their religious prophecies, never did He do that. Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

    “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Not every martyr automatically becomes a fulfillment of prophecy.
    Tho agree nothing is by chance, and God the CPU has a reason for every equation; the maths Baha'i and Baha'ullah are presenting isn't right, as we can show the sums from the previous texts, with the expected results.

    It is like Baha'i keep borrowing numbers from elsewhere to make the sums work.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    You're basically throwing the Bible out now to make a point.
    The Bible might refer to the glory of God, that is not the name specified.

    Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple (Sandalphon) of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem (Zion), which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).
    I don't have a belief in jesus; Yeshua means salvation from God, I accept God fulfilled what was stated with a specific name reference, and accept the next prophetic utterances.
    Used to think you were someone who listened, realizing you're not, as I've already told you multiple times my new name.
    Love how you're quoting what 2ndpillar just said, and haven't read the chapter to see that both the wise (Daniel 12:10), and Michael teaches others to understand these things (Daniel 12:1).
    If this could be shown exegetically would want to understand it.
    So why are Baha'i overwriting everyone's prophecies to make him fit?

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  20. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Ιησού

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    You are using the very texts you don't believe, to try to prove your false man true, against whom the texts you disbelieve have warned.

    To do that, you have had to blaspheme Jesus, time and time again.

    Like I said, TB, y'all need to write your own bible and stop pretending you have anything to say about the words and works of Jesus the Christ
    .
     
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