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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah foretold in the Tanakh. The book of Isaiah is one of the most cited books. I’m wanting to better understand the reasons for and against the fulfilment of certain verses. Anyone with anything sensible and respectful to say is welcome to contribute. Thank you.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Unicorn
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    I just have a bit of a nitpick here. Christ means anointed, so it's like saying 'There are messianich verses but none refer to the messiah', which is just weird.
     
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  3. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Ιησού

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    The title of your thread is very confusing... All Messianic verses are about Jesus. God says nothing about multiple christs... but Jesus says many will come in Jesus' authority, calling themselves anointed... and they have... at least one of those imposters is canonized. Some think Mithras was an earlier christ because Paul called his mithraism christianity.

    However,
    God causes Moses to say that God will send a prophet like unto Moses, and that we will listen to Him or die, period. And in John 12:48, Jesus repeats what God says through Moses, about the words Jesus was given by the Father to speak. To be like unto Moses, the prophet could certainly not delete the Law of Moses. Not one letter from the Law will pass away until Heaven and Earth pass away... after the Millennium. And Jesus' words will never pass away... they weren't shuffled off to a side-track for Paul's false dispensational system which "think to change times and laws".

    That's as polite as the truth can be.
     
    #3 OtherSheep, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  4. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I think there are verses and passages through the Tanakh which foretell and show fulfillment in Christ as Messiah...

    Top 40 Most Helpful Messianic Prophecies • Jews for Jesus
     
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  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That’s reasonable. It would have been clearer to say Jesus. I suspect most readers will know what I mean but it’s an important distinction to make.

    King Cyrus of Persia is labeled the anointed one in Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1 so we already have Messianic verses that doesn’t refer to Jesus.
     
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  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That’s a very comprehensive list thank you. I see 9 out of the 40 prophecies listed are directly from Isaiah, more that any other book in the Tanakh.

    Here’s the list of specific references to Messianic verses in Isaiah that Jews for Jesus believes refers to Jesus.

    Isaiah 61:1-2
    Isaiah 7:14
    Isaiah 52:13-15
    Isaiah 9:6-7
    Isaiah 9:1-2
    Isaiah 40:3-5
    Isaiah 53:3
    Isaiah 35:5-6
    Isaiah 11:1
    Isaiah 42:1-6

    Do you agree with them all?
     
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  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

    The most important verse in reference to Jesus is found in Isaiah 7:14; "The Lord himself will give you a sign; "An 'ALMAH', a young unmarried female, who is pregnant will bear a son, etc."
     
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  8. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Yes, I do agree with all of them as referring to Jesus. Some may also be double prophecies which also reference Israel.
     
  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Abd the most important of them all, is Isaiah 7:14; where it is written; "The Lord himself will give you a sign; "An 'ALMAH', a young unmarried female, who is pregnant will bear a son, etc."
     
  10. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I recently heard a Spong lecture where he indicates that much of Second Isaiah was used to compose the story of Christ.
     
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  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I’ve heard some Jews propose the gospel writers use of the Tanakh as a whole to create legend and myth around a Jewish historic figure like Jesus. In other words a real person has been created into the main character for Christians. Verses such as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 would be relevant. Matthew would be the gospel that has the most references to the Tanakh, over 60 in total. Three of those refer to the second Isaiah.

    OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew
     
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  12. Craig Sedok

    Craig Sedok Member

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    I saya. A book written by man is no greater than a book for sale at shinders. The fulfillment of those verses were more a question than an answer. Waiting is what a fulfillment implies. That is why we are here to question it all. Other than that a christian or jew is just that. Waiting
     
  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you. The authors Matthew 1 and Luke 1 appear to have Isaiah 7:14 in mind when composing the Virgin Mary narrative. It’s a hugely important part of the story of Jesus and who He is.
     
    #13 adrian009, Oct 12, 2018
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  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    It’s helpful to have a list of verses that Christians may or may not consider as being relevant to Jesus. Are there any Messianic verses that may refer to someone other than Jesus? That could include those that refer to the Return of Christ or another anointed one.
     
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  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The people who write books about the Bible say that Jesus fulfills types. For example Joseph son of Jacob is a type of Christ. He is rejected by his brothers in order that he may preserve them. Therefore he is called a type of Christ. Similarly the suffering servant of Isaiah and the Son can also considered to be types of Christ. A prophet is someone who moves people towards righteousness, and the prophet is usually harmed in the process as a result of moving against the grain. If you say that a prophecy is fulfilled by Jesus Christ you might mean that he is the goal some prophet wished for and/or was moved to envision. I think believing that Jesus is the Christ is meant to be a choice, and it involves choosing to believe that he is the embodiment of the prophets' hopes. This is the method by which these scriptures can be seen to be about Jesus Christ, but they do not name him are predict him.
     
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  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    You would have a view of Christianity that most Christians would disagree with. The acceptance of Paul as an apostle of Christ and the truth of his teachings was supported by 2 Peter 3:15-16 and Peter was appointed by Jesus, However although I believe in Moses, Christ and the apostles I also believe that Muhammad and Bahá’u’lláh we anointed from God few Christians would accept either.

    Many Christians would see Messianic verses of Isaiah as referring to Jesus and His Return. Not all Christians believe in His Return as it appears you don’t.

    You really sound as if you have an axe to grind with Paul. You be interested in another thread I started not so long ago.

    Did Paul champion the Cause of Christ or corrupt it?

    Slightly off topic but in response to your post in Matthew’s record of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets" (Matthew 5:17-18).

    So if Jesus did not “abolish” the law, then it must still be binding, right? So the Sabbath requirements must still be applicable, along with many other elements of the Mosaic Law. This belief is based on a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ never suggested the laws of Moses would remain forever in effect. Such a view would contradict the Teachings of the Apostles (Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 2:15).

    One arguement is the Greek meaning of the word “abolish” translated from the Greek kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matthew 26:61, Acts of the Apostles 6:14) and of the dissolving of the human body at death (2 Corinthians 5:1). The word can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.”

    The word abolish used in Matthew 5:17 is set in opposition to “fulfill.” Christ came “...not to abolish, but to fulfill.” Jesus did not come to this earth for the purpose of acting as an opponent of the law. His goal was not to prevent its fulfillment. Rather, He revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, hroug prophetic fulfilment and the establishment of a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31, Luke 22:20).

    Healing on the Sabbath (Mark 3:1-6) and changing the laws of marriage (Matthew 19:3-12) are specific examples of His authority to bring a New Covenant with new laws.
     
  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    You don’t seem particularly convinced by either Judaism or Christianity:D
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    WAS MARY REALLY A VIRGIN?

    Yes! Right up until the act by which she conceived her first born son, Jesus, who was sired by her half brother, Joseph ben Heli.

    Isaiah 7: 14; Jewish Translation: “Therefore the Lord, of his own, shall give you a sign; behold the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son and she shall call his name Immanuel.”

    Isaiah 7: 14; Erroneous KJV Translation; “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his neme Emmanuel.”

    “The Greek word parthenos (παρθένος) is ambiguous but the Hebrew term “Almah”[Unmarried Female] is absolute, and is erroneously translated from Isaiah 7: 14, to Greek in Matthew 1:23; as “virgin,” whereas according to Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, the Hebrew term “Almah,” carries the meaning, (Concealment---unmarried female.)”

    The word “Virgin” in reference to the mother of Jesus was not introduced until the Latin Bible ‘The Vulgate’ was translated to English, when the Latin word ‘VIRGO’ was translated to Virgin. For just like the early Greek language, the Latin did not have a specific term for ‘VIRGIN’, their word “Virgo” refers to any young woman of marriageable age, whether or not she had previous sexual relations with a man.

    In translating the Hebrew words of the prophet Isaiah, that an “Almah” an “unmarried female” would be with child and bear a son,” into Greek, which unlike the Hebrew language, does not have a specific term for ‘virgin,’ the authors of the Septuagint and The Gospel of Matthew, correctly used the Greek word ‘Parthenos,’ which carries a basic meaning of ‘girl,’ or unmarried youth, and denotes ‘virgin’ only by implication. To translate something from the Hebrew to the Greek, or from any language to another, one must not lose the essence of the original, and the original was, that “An unmarried woman would be with child.”

    The Hebrew have a specific term for 'virgin' which is, 'Bethulah' which word is used in every instance in the OT where a woman is specifically to be seen as a girl who had never had any sexual experience with a man, and the word that Isaiah would have used if it was the Lords intention to State that a virgin would be pregnant, etc.

    Go to “A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature,” by David Jeffery. There you will find written, “Many scholars consider the new Revised Standard Version of the King James translation, which is probably the most widely used version of the English bible today, and considered by most modern scholars to be to be the most accurate translation of the Old Testament. It follows the modern consensus in translating ‘Almah’ as ‘Young Woman’ in Isaiah 7: 14.

    In 1973, an ecumenical edition of RSV was approved by both Protestant and Catholic hierarchies, called the common bible. A New English Translation of the Bible, published in 1970 and approved by the council of churches in England, Scotland, Wales, the Irish council of churches, the London Society of Friends, and the Methodist and Presbyterian churches of England, all translate Isaiah 7: 14; “A young Woman is with child, and she will bear a son.”

    Also The Good News Bible, Catholic Study Edition, with imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon reads, Isaiah 7: 14; “A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc.”

    As these religious bodies all now accept that Isaiah was not referring to a virgin in that famous passage, they must now accept that the authors of the Septuagint and The Gospel of Matthew, who were forced to use the Greek term “Parthenos” in reference to Isaiah’s prophecy, were in no way implying that the pregnant Mary, was still a virgin.

    Matthew 1: 22-23; should now read; ‘Now all this happened to make come true what the Lord had said through the prophet [Isaiah],’ “An unmarried woman/Almah who is pregnant will bear a son and he will be called immanuel: (“which means God is with us.”)

    The point of the prophecy is not in the fact that an unmarried woman would bear a son, but that a child conceived out of wedlock (A *******) would be seen as the vessel that the Lord would fill with his spirit, and through whom the Lord would reveal himself to us, (“God is with us.”)

    Luke states the child would be born according to the power o/workings of the Holy Spirit.

    Galatians 4: 29; At that time, the child born according to the flesh [Ishmael] despised and persecuted him, [Isaac] who was born according to God’s promise and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

    Isaac, who is the prototype of Jesus, was born of a brother/sister relationship and born of God’s promise according to the power/workings of the Holy Spirit, and Isaac was the biological son of Abraham and his half sister Sarah, who were both sired by Terah, as Jesus, who was born of God’s promise according to the power of the Holy Spirit, was the biological son of Joseph and his half sister Mary, who were both sired by Alexander Helios III/Heli.
     
    #19 The Anointed, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you. Your website provides a compelling narrative weaving prophecy from Isaiah and other Hebrew books into the gospel accounts.

    Most of the prophecies in regards Jesus are included above.

    Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

    Are there any prophecies from Isaiah that might refer to the second coming of Christ or another who has been anointed?
     
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