Which Goddess is Mary?

[agorman]

Jesus is not a proper deity or is not from the start.

What do you mean? According to you Christians He's one of the three aspects of THE deity!

 

[Brickjectivity]

What do you mean? According to you Christians He's one of the three aspects of THE deity!

You mistakenly keep saying "You Christians believe this and that." Different ones are more educated than others and even may disagree about some things.

...All I know is the last time the Christians of my family prayed to Virgin Mary for me...

Roman Catholics are not the definition of what all Christians must believe but they also generally do not accept that Mary could be a goddess. We are speaking about Mary and whether she can be considered a goddess. I'm saying its well nigh impossible for that, and so are all these other varieties of Christians. Its only a self described pagan who is trying to insist otherwise and who thinks that all people need a female goddess like he does and attempts to define all Christians as if they are pagans. Christians aren't. Mariolaters are a rare set that might see things you way.

 

[Shiranui117]

You are siting a very conservative source. The position of the Church on Mary is;

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
What Mary does for the salvation of the human family does not come from her own power, but from a gift of divine grace that is bestowed on her through her Son. All the salvific influence that she bestows on us is produced "not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it."38 Mary in no way replaces Christ. Rather, her role is to bring us to Christ, as is illustrated in Mary's admonition at the wedding feast of Cana, "Do whatever he tells you" (Jn 2:5).

I've heard many adjectives used to discredit Catholic sources about Catholicism, but "conservative" is a new one. One would hope that conservative sources are a more accurate portrayal of Catholic teaching, especially soince either that article or a linked page within it quotes at least half a dozen Popes.

What I find highly intriguing about Catholic Marian devotion is that one can "consecrate" oneself to Mary. It doesn't seem like this is the case with any other Saint with the sole exception of St. Joseph, which is far, far more seldom. Also, St. Catherine of Siena also had a vision where Mary explicitly denied being immaculately conceived. Why did the Church reject this vision and not later ones?

 

[Mister Silver]

I remember reading The Once and Future Goddess

There is mention in it how the emergence of Mary was due to goddess representations earlier in history.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I remember reading The Once and Future Goddess

There is mention in it how the emergence of Mary was due to goddess representations earlier in history.

Ooh, I haven't heard of that one before. Thanks. Yeah, a lot of the cultism and symbolism of Mary is a continuation of goddess worship, in practice. Many of the older Saints and Martyrs are repurposed local deities as it is (St. Brigid, for example).

By the way, @PopeADope, Our Lady of Guadalupe is a continuation of the worship of the Aztec mother/earth goddess, Tonantzin, or a syncretism with her earlier worship. Oftentimes churches or shrines were built ontop of indigenous worship sites and the worship of the pre-Christian deities just continued under the guise of Saints and new depictions of "Mary". That happens all over the world.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Relevant:
Religion and Spirituality: The Rise and Rise of the Queen of Heaven
Interfaith_Mary_Buddha
Mari (goddess) - Wikipedia

Then there's a bunch of sites belonging to Pagans who get right to the point and outright worship Mary as a mother goddess in her own right.

Of course none of this has anything to do with the historical Mary, a real 1st century Jewish woman. The idea that she was a goddess surely would've abhorred her. Humans love to make deities out of their heroes and create mythologies. Hero worship seems to be part of our nature. Which makes you wonder about Jesus, too.
Mary of Nazareth: Friend of God and Prophet

 

[pearl]

Why did the Church reject this vision and not later ones?

Private revelations, popular piety, are not part of the 'deposit of faith' and Catholics are under no obligation to believe them. Plus the fact that this particular 'vision' contradicts an infallible teaching.

I've heard many adjectives used to discredit Catholic sources about Catholicism, but "conservative" is a new one.

Raises the problem of labeling, 'ultra' conservative may have been more correct, especially concerning Father Most whom you quoted. He rants against those he refers to as liberal scholars, Raymond Brown a perfect example. But Most does not reflect the Church's position for Brown was appointed by two different popes to serve on the board of Catholic scholars, the PBC. I think some people are simply opposed to change and are unaware of what can and what cannot change within the one Church.

 

[pearl]

Mary of Nazareth: Friend of God and Prophet

Excellent article.

 

[metis]

Mary of Nazareth: Friend of God and Prophet

Excellent article.

Ditto, and let me also add that "America" is a top-shelf theological magazine, imo.

 

[pearl]

Ditto, and let me also add that "America" is a top-shelf theological magazine, imo.

Yes I agree, but some consider it to be too progressive. It is a Jesuit publication. Elizabeth Johnson is considered a feminist theologian. Her book 'The Quest for the Living God' has had harsh criticism from the US bishops. I found it an excellent read.

 

[metis]

Yes I agree, but some consider it to be too progressive. It is a Jesuit publication. Elizabeth Johnson is considered a feminist theologian. Her book 'The Quest for the Living God' has had harsh criticism from the US bishops. I found it an excellent read.

Thanks for this, and I'm gonna put it on my "gotta read" list.

Last spring I went to a seminar on climate change and PF's teachings on this that was being taught by two Dominican nuns, and they also were not happy campers with some of these bishops. However, one point they did bring up is that many of the bishops who were not too receptive to PF's stance do so on the basis that they don't want the church to become too politicized, which to a point is understandable.

However...

 

[pearl]

Dominican nuns, and they also were not happy campers with some of these bishops.

With good reason. It was, above all people, Cardinal Law that instituted a Vatican investigation into the US nuns, that they were not preaching enough against homosexuality, birth control etc., but were ministering to these. There is more holiness in the convent than the chancery. The Bishops have never shied away from politics.

 

[metis]

There is more holiness in the convent than the chancery

I hear ya.

 

[Shiranui117]

Private revelations, popular piety, are not part of the 'deposit of faith' and Catholics are under no obligation to believe them. Plus the fact that this particular 'vision' contradicts an infallible teaching.

An "infallible teaching" that was not declared so until centuries later, I might add. It looks like even Thomas Aquinas ran afoul of it, teaching that Mary had to have been conceived with original sin, yet cleansed of it before she was born (do ctrl+f and type in chapter 224 for his exact words).

I wish the Church would make it clearer that these visions are not obligatory to believe, especially since the overwhelming bulk of Catholic devotional practice is based directly upon such private revelations. I personally feel the Roman Church would be much healthier spiritually if these revelations were downplayed and de-emphasized.

 

[metis]

I wish the Church would make it clearer that these visions are not obligatory to believe, especially since the overwhelming bulk of Catholic devotional practice is based directly upon such private revelations. I personally feel the Roman Church would be much healthier spiritually if these revelations were downplayed and de-emphasized.

Frankly, I don't see such devotions as violating spirituality, per se, even though I personally don't do it. To me, it's sortofa "whatever floats your boat" kind of approach that I take, as I'm far more concerned about the "end product"-- iow, does it help the person without hurting others.

 

[Spiderman]

At Fatima, Mary promised her immaculate heart would triumph...we are seeing that happ en

 

[shunyadragon]

I remember reading The Once and Future Goddess

There is mention in it how the emergence of Mary was due to goddess representations earlier in history.

The representations of Mary bear a strong resemblance to Artemis a Greek Goddess.

The Queen of Heaven, Mary, apparently preexisted the Mary of the New Testament.

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven.

Jeremiah 7:18

We will do everything we said we would do. We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and pour out wine offerings to Her .

Jeremiah 44:17