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Where do atheists/seculars get their morals from?

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have noticed i'm asking all those many difficult big questions, but i somehow believe that Atheists, Agnostics, and other Seculars in RF are amongst the most intelligent and accepting of others. That's why i believe that i would find pretty good and honest answers for my questions than if i had asked these questions to others. Even if you have no answer for my too many questions now, i would know you will ponder it and give it a try some other time.

Thank you all for your patience and i'll wait for your answers. I hope no body would debate me here, because i came asking in peace. :p

P.S. I still didn't finish reading that book, and it made start questioning even before i finish it. I'll keep reading as we go with our discussions . :)
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I like all those quotations, especially the last one. :p Thank you.

I noticed that the "don't harm others" argument is almost the only thing which most Westerners agree upon, but what does harm mean? is it the physical harm, the psychological and sociological harm, or both?

What is hateful to yourself, do not do to others.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I think morality comes naturally for the most part. As one looks closely enough, people generally follow a pattern in that it is much better to live with minimal chaos as possible, so standards are often agreed upon or tolerated in one form or another in order to basically co-exist and minimise confrontation. Of course there are times where one's own standard of what is moral conflicts with anothers and at times it ends up with people wondering where morality has gone based on their own view of what it should be.

Basically the way I view this is that morality per definition is subjective and varied, but the intention is to generally live with one another without causing excessive friction because living a relatively peaceful existence is preferable to living one full of conflict and pain in whatever form it takes, so a standard based on our experiences is formed of which we react and change accordingly. Obviously this can be religious based behavior and sometimes it's not based on religion at all. It all depends on our view but at least we can see some common traits a morality system has for a group even if the views diametrically oppose one another whether perchance is secular or theistic based. -NM-
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is hateful to yourself, do not do to others.

Well, I believe the adult world is much more sophisticated than to just have a love/hate relationship. There are many things which can't be simply described as hateful and unhateful. So, can you please elaborate and give example if possible.

Thank you. :)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The answer is different for each Atheist. I will sum up my approach with 3 short quotations:

The purpose of our lives is to be happy.
--Dalai Lama

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
--Dalai Lama

When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
--Abraham Lincoln

Another way to look at this is Aristotle's, which is that virtue is the science of happiness.

I will also give you this to ponder:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg


I've noticed on several occasions that Autodidact and I have very similar understandings of morality. For instance, we both see happiness as an ultimate purpose of life and we agree that morality is the art, science or discipline whereby one is guided to behaviors that are most conducive to happiness.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well, I believe the adult world is much more sophisticated than to just have a love/hate relationship. There are many things which can't be simply described as hateful and unhateful. So, can you please elaborate and give example if possible.

Thank you. :)

That is the way one of the wisest men who has ever lived, Rabbi Hillel, expressed the golden rule. The Jewish approach is that it is a guide as to what is considered harmful--it's rather simple, and yet you'd be surprised how often people fail to follow it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Well, at least I can say I get my morals from a much better place than Mr. Spinkles gets his. I think we all know the kind of places Mr. Spinkles can be found when he's out shopping for morals. The less said about his tastes in this matter, the better.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Do atheists all around the world share the same set of morals?

If not, what is the source of morality then?

I use my own noggin and rely heavily on my innate empathy for the suffering of my fellow life forms. I do not want them to suffer because I feel their suffering as if it were my own. The quality of empathy for other beings is universal across cultures and religions but not everybody in every culture has an equal talent for it. If you've got that quality, you sure as heck don't need religion to tell you the difference between right and wrong.
 
Do atheists all around the world share the same set of morals?
Yes and no. Most people share share basic "morals", such as a sense of fairness, loyalty towards friends/family, disgust at mother/son incest, etc. This is a product of biology. Psychopaths (who are known to have abnormal brains) and people who have had brain damage to certain parts of the frontal lobe are the ones who most notably lack the ability to tell right from wrong or the ability to relate to or feel compassion for others. Lots of higher mammals are capable of these basic moral sentiments, simply because individuals who are comfortable with mother/son incest, or who are too selfish to work in a team, do not produce many fertile offspring.

Obviously the murderous tyrant of North Korea, Kim Jong Il, and his underlings, has a very different set of morals from Bertrand Russel, who was also an atheist. If we choose to look at sophisticated/respectable atheists, then there's a lot of diversity. Ayn Rand had Objectivism. The Greek schools of philosophy still have a big influence, including Hedonism, Epicureanism, and Stoicism. In Asia there was Buddhism and Confucianism. More modern atheist ethical philosophy includes John Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism, Bertrand Russel, and Sam Harris (a famous author at the moment, and a so-called 'New Atheist'). There's also the famous Noam Chomsky.

There have also been atheist Nihilists and Relativists .... people of all sorts. Look at atheists in South Korea, for example, the older generation is very conservative and traditional (as I understand), women have their place, homosexuality is taboo, etc.

Moral philosophy sort of blends in with political philosophy, so we also have to consider people like Voltaire and Rousseau, Karl Marx, George Orwell, and so on. (Although I'm not sure Rousseau was an atheist ...)

I don't pretend to have read all the works of these people in detail of course.... and of course you can see my bias for Western, liberal thinkers.

Personally, even though I am an atheist I would not be so quick to dismiss any ethical philosophy that holds up well to reason and experience. For example, there are great ethical philosophies from Aristotle, Thomas Paine, Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Frederick Douglass, and Immanuel Kant, all of whom could be said to have believed in "God" (of one sort or another).

Tashan said:
If not, what is the source of morality then?
Well I think this question needs to be clarified. Are you asking, what causes people to behave morally? This is a matter that can be solved by fact-finding. Or are you asking, how do I justify my ideas of morality? That's the ultimate question, and I think there are lots of imperfect but good answers out there.

Tashan said:
In case you are wondering why i'm asking this question, i'm currently reading a book called "Applying Moral Theories". In case you have not read that book, i'll tell you more about it when i get some feedback from you all.
Cool! Do you recommend it?
 
It always seemed to me that people who follow religion ALSO want, at root, to be happy. Why do you praise God? Why are you faithful and obedient, abstain from pork, etc.? Because you want to go to heaven, so you can be happy for eternity. Suppose praising God and being faithful and obedient was the "right" thing to do, or it's what our loving Creator wants, BUT it will result in you burning in hell forever. Would believers still think praising/worshiping is a desirable, or moral, or even a sane thing to do? I think most of them wouldn't. Therefore, the deciding factor is really the happiness. Both believers and nonbelievers are motivated *basically* (but not entirely) by the desire to be happy and to not suffer.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
That's a good thing to say, but what would you do when you are faced with a more challenging issues where some moral codes might strongly conflict with yours and might even drive you to oppose it for being disturbing or something. Would you just say they have different code of morals and walk away or you would point out for them how "morally wrong" that was based on your "own morality"?
This is an entirely different topic though, wouldnt you say?
that is about cultural and morel relativism. as far as I'm concerned these scenarios are determined on case to case basis.



If it was biologically rooted, we wouldn't have different set of morals, don't you think so?
Beyond morality which is shaped by culture, many believe that there is evolutionary influence behind morality, from the importance of family ties to altruism.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
There have been some very good answers in this tread, but I felt it might be good to approach this subject from a different angle.

Do atheists all around the world share the same set of morals?

No. I think you will find that no two people, atheist or not, share the exact same set of morals. Everyone is different to a larger or lesser degree, even if they grew up together.

If not, what is the source of morality then?

And here comes the meat of the reply.

Depending on who you ask you will get many different answers. Some will point to their parents teaching them right from wrong. Others will attribute their morals to the specific culture they are a part of. And some will claim that they get their morals from their religion. And while all of these may have some influence on the individual person, and perhaps even on groups of people, this still doesn’t answer the question. Not really.

The thing that has puzzled anthropologists for decades is that even in vastly different cultures there seems to be several overlapping “basic” type morals. As it turns out almost all societies share a disregard for things like murder, theft, rape and other serious crimes. Why is that? Surely if morality was down to cultural biases we would see some divergence here. Instead we see an almost global consensus that certain things are just not done, and are in fact frowned upon.

Now, it would be very unscientific of me to attribute this to some kind of deity, and in any case people believe in such a varying spectrum of gods that surely even a religious person must see that this cannot be the reason. The answer is a very simple one. The answer is Evolution. At least Evolution of a kind.

Imagine, if you will, a society in which murder, theft and rape was accepted, or even seen as a suitable way of life. Imagine the death toll, the insecurity, the instability. The chaos. How long do you think such a society would survive? Not for very long, I’m sure. The math is quite simple in this one and fairly obvious even to elementary school children. (Don’t scrub elementary school children though. They understand more than most people think...). Therefore it follows that only those societies that rejected this kind of behaviour would survive and thrive. And that, simple as it may sound, is the reason for this seeming universality in our morals.

But hang on a second... Surely, if this pattern is correct then we would see these results among other social animals as well. And we do! Altruistic behaviour among higher primates is well documented, not only towards their own species, but even towards their caretakers (and in some cases, random humans they encounter), whom they probably see as flock mates anyway. But this is not a huge surprise. After all, we have more in common with the great apes than we do not. It would be expected that we also share some behavioural traits.

Very well then. I give you the South American Vampire Bat. Of these species of bat (there exists at least three) all of them display a particular type of altruistic behaviour. See, vampire bats (or bats in general for that matter) have a very high metabolism to the point that going a few nights without feeding can actually be fatal to these amazing critters. So when they go out hunting for the night some will be lucky enough to find some animal to feed from, and some unlucky few will not. So how do they get around this dilemma? Shouldn’t we be seeing bats starving to death left and right? No. Not if they share the spoils. These bats have amazingly developed a sort of social security network, not unlike those found in most industrialized countries. When a bat finds himself on hard times, he can usually rely on his flock mates to provide for him by regurgitating some of the blood they got a hold of. The assumption, of course, is that he will, should the need arise, repay the favour. And in this manner the bats set themselves up to survive even if they themselves are having trouble finding food. In addition to this we find that among all social mammals there seems to be a barrier towards killing their own kind, at least within their own flock and family. They usually also have a ranking system and clearly defined rules of ownership, be it with regards to breeding rights, hunting grounds or the sharing of food.

Now, one might argue that most, if not all the bats in a particular flock are cousins and closely related, and thus one might postulate some kind of kin-selection as the basis (not to be confused with group-selection). And if we transfer this argument to our own societies it seems we might have a hard time explaining how altruistic behaviour persists even in societies in which we are not related to the majority of the people we meet. But what we have to remember is that this is a fairly recent development. 10.000 years ago (the blink of an eye in evolutionary time) most humans lived in small societies where they were probably related to many of the people there, and in any case, we were likely to deal with these people on a daily basis. Hence what we recognize as altruistic behaviour would have made perfect sense.

And it still does. The evolution of societies has shown us that cultures that adhere to certain moral codes and who display altruistic behaviour have staying power. They are safer, more ordered, and, not to mention, a lot more pleasant to live in. In other words, having certain common moral denominators is necessary to have a functioning society, and a society that does not have them will suffer because of it, and may not survive the test of time.
 

diosangpastol

Dios - ang - Pastol
There is no one homogeneous group of atheists, just like there is no one uniform group of non-believers of Santa Claus. However, most atheists follow the general principles of secular morality. And, yes, secular morality is subjective rather than objective.

Christians believe that they have an objective, immutable (unchanging) set of moral laws or, at least, moral principles directly given by God. But when pressed for details, Christians don't agree which principles are these -- other than the most generic and general laws of LOVE -- and whether or not they do change. Christians also believe that their moral laws -- whatever they may be -- are objective and unchanging. In practice, these can readily be shown as not the case.
 

diosangpastol

Dios - ang - Pastol
1. Lack of clarity of what is objectively moral and the ensuing confusion by your churches is a clear indication of the absence of your God, who promised to guide and teach the church. Lack of guidance is a strong indication of the lack of the Guide.

1b. Slavery is a perfect example of a morality issue that should be easily decided on. Right now, for example, all secular governments -- in any part of the world, in whatever culture -- has declared slavery as immoral and illegal. They based the decision on pure secular grounds because the Bible is clearly confused on this issue. Neither the Bible nor Jesus has made a clear statement denouncing slavery.

2. Yes, secular ethics is also interested in finding for absolute basis of morality. The enunciation of moral principles -- human rights, equality, democracy, etc. -- are efforts to find the objective basis of morality. But secular morality does not become invalid if morality turns out to be subjective, because subjectivity is also supported by secular morality. It is theistic belief in objective morality that will suffer if it can be shown that man's moral beliefs are actually evolving.

3. Objective morals do not change -- as theists believe. And this is a testable issue. I am prepared to show that Christianity's moral beliefs are indeed evolving and changing.
 
Is there a poll on this forum that asks members about their views with respect to Atheism? I'm curious as to what the results would look like.... the anonymity of the internet always brings new ideas to the foreground....
 

BeeBooga

Silent Inquisitor
My morals come from self experience and what I expect from others and nothing more.
Along with the kind of person I wish to be in life.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is there a poll on this forum that asks members about their views with respect to Atheism? I'm curious as to what the results would look like.... the anonymity of the internet always brings new ideas to the foreground....
We've got plenty of polls about different issues surrounding atheism. You may be able to use the search page to find what you're looking for specifically.

And if you can't find it, you're more than welcome to create your own poll to ask your question the way you want to ask it. When you create a new thread, there's an option to create a poll to go with it.
 
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