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whats your beef with brexit?

Discussion in 'European Politics' started by England my lionheart, Aug 25, 2017.

  1. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    IMO we should be feeling like



    Control of our borders.
    No more nonsense directives.
    Self determination.
    New trade deals.

    I love Europe but never felt European,been to some amazing places there too,wine women but not so much song (ever seen the euro song contest lol) so I'm glad we're out and feeling positive,not every one is so here's your chance to say why.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    I support Brexit and feel a hundred percent European. Just believe in the European people, not the EU.
     
    #2 Rival, Aug 25, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  3. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    I have no problem with the European people,I know many.
     
    #3 England my lionheart, Aug 25, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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  4. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I wish we got out of the EU too. :) Money is running out of even basic services now that we have to pay for the mishandling of economies of countries with much bigger populations and pushed around so our own exports and relations outside EU suffer. I'd hate to be a kid now that schools are being turned to huge classes, distance learning and internships with a pay of 9 euros a day. Healthcare is still decent, but you have to wait for months to get an appointment... the system used to work, but now it's going to turn into a cautionary tale.
     
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  5. The Holy Bottom Burp

    The Holy Bottom Burp Active Member

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    I'm probably in a minority, being a 'leftie' who voted Leave, but I voted that way not because I'm worried about immigration or being subject to legislation that comes from the European parliament. I voted that way because the EU is pretty much a failed project in terms of turning Europe into a "super power" economic force (which was the great objective at one point). The balance of power and wealth has not really changed; Germany, the UK and France still have all the jobs and all the money. When a recession bites being part of the EU doesn't help; just ask the PIGS countries.

    I'd be lying if I said I didn't think this thing is risk free, but on the balance of probabilities I strongly suspect the worst outcome is we will be no worse off as an "independent" nation. As a trading partner we need Europe, but Europe needs us as well. We have so much experience, so many skills, along with a reasonably good infrastructure, so we make a good trading partner. The idea that we're going to become some third rate friendless economy is just scaremongering. We've made the decision as a democracy people, get used to it.
     
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  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Brexit is none of my business, but as an onlooker I'm astonished at (what from the media appears to be) the utterly shambolic disorganization in Brexiting. May (again from the media) appears as a control freak not in control, a non-consulter, a planless planner, and in one report, a dead Prime Minister walking. Oi veh!

    And the speed with which Nigel Farage vanished and Boris Johnson fled from taking responsibility has made it look like the job of Brexiting has fallen, in effect, to non-volunteers.

    So I hope that's wrong, but if it's right, I say to Britain, Jolly good luck with that, chaps!
     
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  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I support Texit and the campaign for the Alone-Star State, but with a progressive immigration policy that would allow the sane Texans to leave and join the rest of us.

    That said, I'm rather ashamed to admit that I'm fairly uninformed on the Brexit issue and hold a bias against it primarily because of a bias against nationalism and a visceral contempt for nativism.
     
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  8. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    I'm not following this very closely being riveted by our own train wreck here in the USA, but it appears that the EU is basically telling the UK - you want brexit, well, you can have it shoved up your butt. In other words, doing their best to make the UK regret their decision and stopping others from going down that path.

    From that perspective, I would expect the economy in the UK to take a significant short term hit. I have no idea about the long term.
     
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  9. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Its not about nationalism jay,we just want to know who's coming in,imagine if Israel didn't have control of its borders.
     
  10. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    I think you read it well.
     
  11. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Farage and UKIP fulfilled their purpose,there was nowhere else to go for that party after the referendum.

    I agree with the "non volunteers"
     
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  12. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    Let me explain why this is wrong.

    Brexit is not being 'shoved up our butts'; an undemocratic referendum returned a very slight majority in favour of leaving the EU. The EU didn't force us to hold this referendum; the real reason it was called was the then-Prime Minister David Cameron was looking to quell unrest from Eurosceptic elements of the Conservative Party and to dissuade floating Conservative voters from giving their support to UKIP.

    The EU is basically spelling out what forfeiting our membership will mean and nothing more. The UK's government doesn't even know what it wants. Hades, Brexiters don't even know what they want beyond 'get us out of the EU' because they voted for something they didn't have any information on... because there was no plan in place in case a majority of those who voted backed Leave; because 'we're sick of experts'. This attitude can be perfectly summed up by
    1. The fact Brexit-supporting MPs walked out of a Parliamentary committee report meeting because it didn't line up with their blind jingoism;
    2. We're not allowed to be depressed or worried about Brexit; if we are we get called 'Remoaner' or 'unpatriotic';
    3. Brexiters voted to restore Parliamentary sovereignty but were calling judges who refused to let the Tories fast-track laws into place without any kind of Parliamentary scrutiny 'enemies of the people' (i.e. the judges said Government may not subvert Parliamentary sovereignty);
    4. Peoples' decision to vote Leave apparently wasn't based on any kind of xenophobia except hate crimes against foreigners and British people perceived as being foreigners sky-rocketed in England after the result came in - in Scotland which returned a majority for Remain, hate crimes against such people actually fell;
    5. The Leave campaign made up claims about how much money we spend on our EU membership (neglecting the rebates we get) and what we could spend it on (i.e. £350mn a week could be spent on the NHS after Brexit). As soon as the result came in, this claim was disavowed as being untrue;
    6. People voted based on claims like this and then later on they told people they didn't;

    Nobody on the Leave campaign has a clue how to go about Brexit. That's why Theresa May's Governments have been existing on sound-bites like 'No deal is better than a bad deal' for the last year. They don't even know what a 'no deal' Brexit will cost us because the man responsible for such things, David Davis, isn't doing his job and performing any kind of analyses of what it might look like. That's why the Leave campaigns most prominent voices vanished mysteriously for several months after the result came in. It's why Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has spent months saying the EU can 'go whistle' if it expects us to pay money we've already pledged towards projects we're already benefiting from but now says actually we will have to pay. The UK Government is negotiating in bad faith. Our negotiation strategy seems to consist of 'We want to keep all the benefits of EU membership but pay nothing towards it nor keep any of the parts we don't like'. When the EU refuses, the Government starts repeating itself, but more shrilly than before; 'We want...'

    Our economy will probably recover; but it will be recovering from wholly avoidable, self-inflicted damage. Which people will blame either Remain voters or the EU for. Heck, in another thread, England my lionheart was blaming the EU for domestic policy choices taken by successive Westminster governments. It's everyone's fault but the Brexiteers.
     
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  13. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    There are some things which I agree with in your post like we weren't prepared for an out vote but I think you have missed a lot of truths.

    People have been calling for a referendum for years,the main reason being freedom of movement,the euro and the fragile economies of Spain Italy and the poorer states.

    There are only 3 states with any money,Germany France and Britain.
    The EU was an idea of a federal Europe that simply doesn't work for Britain,it doesn't seem to be working for Spain and Italy either so its a good time to leave.
     
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  14. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    I voted "remain" as a leftie, but it was with very mixed feelings. I don't feel people should try to overturn the referendum vote and we should just "get on with it" as best we can. I changed my mind several times in the course of the campaign and tried to make a decision based on the facts but the referendum campaign had very little to do with facts. It became a choice between which side wanted to make me vomit the least.

    At the time that was the remain side but the scaremongering was really off putting. If you can't defend the status quo with positives it doesn't reflect well on the argument. it was pure propaganda on both sides. there were groups representing the "left exit" or "lexit" but they didn't get much media coverage at all nor were they in a position to implement their agenda (given Corbyn was in such a weak position at that point). the arguments weren't much better informed that any of the others and could be reduced to "Capitalism Bad, therefore EU bad". Voting remain seemed like a safer (but admittedly unprincipled) option.

    It was easily the most irrelevant decision you could have asked the people to make in the grand scheme of things and felt like voting to bail out the ruling class when they have already sealed their death wish by ignoring climate change. In 100 or 200 years, no-one will care about the outcome of Brexit whereas there are far bigger and more urgent issues that don't get the attention I think they deserve. The outcome wasn't as much a surprise for me as it was for my parents as I could understand why people would want to vote leave (without the racism).
     
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  15. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    UKIP and Eurosceptic MPs have, yes. But not most people.


    Not the EU's fault as successive British Governments have a) underfunded the Borders Agency; and b) actually have the powers to impose restrictions on who can settle here based on income (the Netherlands and Germany have similar rules, I believe).


    A non-issue as the UK has a negotiated exemption meaning we don't even have to pledge to maybe think about getting around to contemplating joining the Euro at some unspecified point in the future. I suspect the vast majority of Leavers couldn't tell us how the Eurozone works. Corbyn himself said Scotland would be forced to use the Euro if we became independent which is a load of guff.


    Their economies are weaker than ours right now. That doesn't mean they've always been weaker than ours, nor will they always be. Frankly, this is the risk when you trade with any smaller country or any country at all. At some point their economy might weaken in comparison to ours. It's not a good enough reason for us to stop trading with countries like Pakistan. The ironic thing is the UK economy is not doing so well and Brexit has made a bad situation worse.

    The UK has a national debt of roughly £1.8tn. We have no money.


    Yet as long as even one state opposes European federalism enough to veto actions which would strengthen it, the possibility of a European superstate is zero. By removing ourselves from having any vote or veto in European laws, Brexiteers are making a European superstate more likely and their claims, quite ironically, become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
     
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  16. The Holy Bottom Burp

    The Holy Bottom Burp Active Member

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    Sure, once upon a time I was quite a fan of the EU, but as time went on I began to see it as another layer of administration, the value of which was questionable at least. I agree that the referendum campaign was poor; the arguments were generally dumb and scaremongering. I have to admit that I was a little surprised that the Remain campaign couldn't come up with anything factual from an economic point of view, but that only reinforced my suspicion that they didn't have any. If the truth be told I think both sides were doing a fair amount of guessing.

    I completely agree that climate change dwarves the importance of Brexit, it is only a trading agreement in essence. Anyone who thinks the EU is the glue that holds the Europeans together in racial harmony is a tad delusional, and anyone who thinks it might have a major influence on stuff like climate control is also, sadly, fooling themselves...
     
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  17. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    How do Brexit supporters feel about the economic consequences of leaving EU? What I have read and heard seems to be conflicting perceptions. Apparently there is some controversy on what should change from EU's part.
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Ahm, as your avatar, Richard the Lionheart was French.
     
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  19. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Yes he was but "england my Lionheart" was a song by Kate bush,not every picture tells tells the story
     
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  20. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Look at what the EU did to Greece. That's how good it is with economic policy.

    Whether in or out, I am not sure it'll make a huge difference and no-one seems to know (or tell the truth) anyway.
     
    #20 Rival, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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