What's in a name?

[Deeje]

You do realize, I presume, that Catholic Christianity originated in the East, not the West. And we share with the Orthodox Church the same priesthood, the same apostolic teaching, the same sacraments, though administered differently.

Apostasy by any other name is still apostasy.....Pharisee....Sadducee....Essene....did Jesus differentiate?

As for the original reformers you might be surprised to know that they retained much from the Church.
Martin Luther: “It is an article of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.” (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)

John Calvin: “there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.” (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)

Ulrich Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”.” (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639

Actually what the original reformers believed, is of no concern in the big picture. All the Reformation achieved was eliminating many of the Catholic doctrines that were pure inventions of the church, with no scriptural grounds whatsoever.....the role and adoration of Mary and the choosing of "saints"......the belief that she was "ever virgin"....when the Bible indicates that Mary and Joseph were a normal married couple who had at least 7 children.....then there's the existence of a place called "purgatory" or "limbo" for unbaptized infants (out of fashion now apparently).....and the use of images in worship as I have spoken about quite a bit....all of those beliefs are completely false because scripture reveals them to be. Do you never do any research of your own on these matters?

But you know, the best thing that the Reformation accomplished was getting the Bible back into the hands of the common man. Keeping the Bible away from the people ensured their ignorance of what it taught by those who appointed themselves as its sole custodians....and feeding the masses their concocted lies for centuries. Those lies became so thoroughly entrenched that the reformers took a lot of those false doctrines with them......the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire...to mention a few. None of those things are Biblically supported.

Have you considered the context or do you just quote?

Now that is funny coming from you. You don’t even "quote" most of the time. Is it because you don’t actually know what the scriptures teach, or because your church says you must believe what it teaches. I have seen nothing to date that backs up what you believe, from the Bible.

This work was composed during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (167–164 B.C.) and was written to strengthen and comfort the Jewish people in their ordeal. The persecution was occasioned by Antiochus’s efforts to unify his kingdom, in face of the rising power of Rome, by continuing the hellenization begun by Alexander the Great; Antiochus tried to force Jews to adopt Greek ways, including religious practices. Severe penalties, including death, were exacted against those who refused. You're accepting apocalyptic literature, visions in symbolic and allegorical language borrowed extensively from the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Daniel as in Rev., literally.

Are you unaware of the infiltration of Hellenism into both Jewish and Christian belief? Did you know that belief in an immortal soul was a Greek concept, not an original Jewish teaching at all.....so it wasn’t a Christian teaching either. That means that there is no part of man that survives death as some conscious, spiritual part of him that leaves the body when it dies. Man does not have a “soul”....man, as a living, breathing creature, IS a “soul”. Souls are mortal and they die. (Ezekiel 18:4) There is no teaching of a “heaven or hell” as opposite destinations in any part of the Bible. It teaches “resurrection” which is a whole other thing....lost on both Jews and Christians in future eras.

Wasn't there a time, recently, that your group predicted the absolute time when this end occur?

As you may be aware, our logo is a “Watchtower” which in ancient times was manned by guards 24/7 to keep the city safe and to alert its residents of anything approaching from a distance, in case action was necessary on their part. Once alerted the residents were at the ready....but if it proved to be a false alarm, they all went back to business as usual. We have had 'hopes' when certain things were seen afar off, and we were informed of 'possibilities'....but NEVER was there a predicted date for the end of the present system of things. Hoping for something is not the same as predicting it.

But judging by world events, we are deep into “the time of the end” and our ‘guards’ are stationed and relaying anything they see and to “stay awake” as Jesus instructed us to do.....
"42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." (Matthew 24:42-44)

What has your church done to prepare you for what is coming?...or are they spiritually "asleep"?

You're literalists reading of Scripture ignores any authorial intent, does not recognize the developing theology of the Evangelists themselves.

And the complete lack of obedience to Christ in all things, does not give your church any authority or credibility at all IMO.

You can be a minion if you wish, but surely you have had enough evidence presented to you of their utter failure to represent Christ in this world to question what you have been taught......we question everything.

 

[Deeje]

God never said God’s name was “Jehovah.”

What did God say his name was sojourner?

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר: (Exodus 3:13-15 Jewish Tanakh)

What do you notice there in verse 15...? "The Lord God" is יְהֹוָ֞ה.....Yahweh. And this name was to be "mentioned" in all the generations of God's people....for how long?

Translating God's name to a recognized English equivalent is better than ignoring it and substituting a mere title as if that precious name was never important. According to God's instruction to Moses (above) there was never a time when the divine name should NOT have been on the lips of his people with due reverence, for all time to come. But they could never just do as they were told....and it meant that when he had fulfilled his promise to Abraham, God had no further use for those who could not obey him for any length of time.

Go back to Eden and see that this is the very issue that got the human race offside with God in the first place. All he ever asked was our obedience, but sadly he seldom got it. You think that Christendom is any less disobedient in bringing in their false doctrines and painting Jehovah as a cruel torturer, burning the souls of the wicked forever? Seriously? It seems to me that people make God into whatever suits them.....But he is who he is, and who he has demonstrated himself to be all along.....and he will be the one we answer to for the way we worship.

 

[Shakeel]

No it isn’t. Look how the JWs control who has access to God through their special name. Muslims same thing with Allah.

No one can control who has "access to God". Everyone can speak to God anytime.

 

[sojourner]

What did God say his name was sojourner?

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר: (Exodus 3:13-15 Jewish Tanakh)

What do you notice there in verse 15...? "The Lord God" is יְהֹוָ֞ה.....Yahweh. And this name was to be "mentioned" in all the generations of God's people....for how long?

Translating God's name to a recognized English equivalent is better than ignoring it and substituting a mere title as if that precious name was never important. According to God's instruction to Moses (above) there was never a time when the divine name should NOT have been on the lips of his people with due reverence, for all time to come. But they could never just do as they were told....and it meant that when he had fulfilled his promise to Abraham, God had no further use for those who could not obey him for any length of time.

Go back to Eden and see that this is the very issue that got the human race offside with God in the first place. All he ever asked was our obedience, but sadly he seldom got it. You think that Christendom is any less disobedient in bringing in their false doctrines and painting Jehovah as a cruel torturer, burning the souls of the wicked forever? Seriously? It seems to me that people make God into whatever suits them.....But he is who he is, and who he has demonstrated himself to be all along.....and he will be the one we answer to for the way we worship.

Except that you call him something else...

 

[metis]

JW's criticize "higher education", and yet they post here using a computer and the internet that both were devised and designed by those with a "higher education". People's lives are being saved every day by medical experts whom have a "higher education", and satellites used in telecommunications were also designed by those with a "higher education".

It seems rather hypocritical for the JW's to badmouth "higher education", and yet they pretty much use it on a daily basis. Go figgur.

 

[sojourner]

No one can control who has "access to God". Everyone can speak to God anytime.

I’ve been told by JWs any number of times that I’m not Christian, and by implication, that I do not have access to God. Muslims have claimed that I don’t keep commandments and therefore are not pleasing enough to God. If that’s not trying to exert control, I don't know what is.

 

[pearl]

Can I ask if you were born a Catholic or did you choose to become one? Either way, I have to wonder how much scripture was the basis for your decision to stay or to join?

We are not born anything, I was baptized and raised a Methodist. I converted to the Catholic Church prior to marrying a Catholic. This was pre Vatican II. Soon became disillusioned and not until our first child was at the age for 1st Communion preparation did I decide to take a serious, deeper look into the Church, before I allowed her to continue in the Church. I began with Church history, Christian Scripture and Hebrew Scripture and found continuity, plus and contemporaneously the writing of Ignatius around the year 112-120 A.D.

What is with this inference that we are somehow uneducated, moronic sheep who just follow what we are told without a sound scriptural education? (That description fits Catholicism more than it fits us)

I do not agree that you have a sound scriptural education. You're group doesn't seem to allow any questioning of its interpretation whereas the Church has defined only a very few passages out of the entire Bible being open to possible interpretations as we move forward in understanding how Scripture has meaning for life in the Church today for how we relate to all peoples. The Bible is a magnificent work of literature that cannot be closed off.

What makes you think that it is our mission to “change the world”?

Encounter by encounter. Because we have no say as to the completion of the Kingdom, does not mean we're are not to live up to the Kingdom ideals.

 

[pearl]

But you know, the best thing that the Reformation accomplished was getting the Bible back into the hands of the common man.

Our Bible!

 

[pearl]

Are you unaware of the infiltration of Hellenism into both Jewish

The term Hellenism refers to Greek speaking Jews. And yes, there is a difference between the Jewish mindset and Greek philosophy.

Now that is funny coming from you. You don’t even "quote" most of the time. Is it because you don’t actually know what the scriptures teach, or because your church says you must believe what it teaches. I have seen nothing to date that backs up what you believe, from the Bible.

I do not cherry pick to try and prove a point. Each verse, in order to be properly understood, must be interpreted as it relates to the whole. The Bible is truth only in its wholeness, not in an individual
pericope alone.

“Watchtower” which in ancient times was manned by guards 24/7

Were the guards to keep others out or yours in?

What has your church done to prepare you for what is coming?...or are they spiritually "asleep"?

We wait for the completion of what began with Jesus, the Reign/Rule of God

You can be a minion if you wish, but surely you have had enough evidence presented to you of their utter failure to represent Christ in this world to question what you have been taught......we question everything.

Your 'evidence' is nothing more than gossip from the uninformed who lives like a fish in a bowl with no knowledge of the ocean.

 

[Shakeel]

I’ve been told by JWs any number of times that I’m not Christian, and by implication, that I do not have access to God. Muslims have claimed that I don’t keep commandments and therefore are not pleasing enough to God. If that’s not trying to exert control, I don't know what is.

Not being pleasing enough and not having access (whatever that means) are two different things.

Of course, if you don't follow Islam, one could hardly hope Allah is pleased with you. One would fear He's not.

As a whole I'm a little confused - were you once both a JW and a Muslim?

 

[metis]

We are not born anything, I was baptized and raised a Methodist. I converted to the Catholic Church prior to marrying a Catholic. This was pre Vatican II. Soon became disillusioned and not until our first child was at the age for 1st Communion preparation did I decide to take a serious, deeper look into the Church, before I allowed her to continue in the Church. I began with Church history, Christian Scripture and Hebrew Scripture and found continuity, plus and contemporaneously the writing of Ignatius around the year 112-120 A.D.

We have a somewhat similar background.

I was raised in a fundamentalist Lutheran church and even had tentative plans to go into the ministry. But what bothered me so much was the anti-science position of the church as I have a love for science, which I eventually went into. The first time I heard that one could believe in both the Bible and in evolution was from a Catholic priest that I ran into at a bowling alley whereas we discussed this.

In college, I went to my first Catholic mass with a girlfriend, took two Catholic theology courses, but I remained pretty much an agnostic until when I hit 30. It is then that I started going regularly to mass with my Catholic wife and finally converted.

Then I read theology books en masse, especially focusing on early Church history from multiple sources so as to not get just one-sided takes. Actually, most of the books I read at first were written by Protestants and Anglicans, but they also confirmed that Jesus did indeed create this Church and that this Church eventually splintered but still has continued on through today.

 

[pearl]

Then I read theology books en masse, especially focusing on early Church history from multiple sources so as to not get just one-sided. Actually, most of the books I read at first were written by Protestants and Anglicans.

Looking back there were some amusing events. In the initial parents meeting in prep for 1st communion, officiated by the priest, the majority literally accused him of 'turning us into a bunch of Protestants.' Needless to say, I felt right at home. I dug into the theology behind Vat II.

 

[metis]

Looking back there were some amusing events. In the initial parents meeting in prep for 1st communion, officiated by the priest, the majority literally accused him of 'turning us into a bunch of Protestants.' Needless to say, I felt right at home. I dug into the theology behind Vat II.

My one neighbor HATED Vatican II, and at one point threated to leave the Church. She eventually changed her mind though.

 

[Deeje]

Except that you call him something else...

Since Jehovah is the originator of all language, I believe he knows his name in all languages.....there are other languages than English, you know....

If you hold to the trinity and see Jesus as God, then why do people have no problem using “Jesus’ name? It’s a joke.

Not to use his name as you know it in your own language makes the Lord’s Prayer meaningless. How do you “hallow” (sanctify or make holy) a name you never use?

 

[Deeje]

I’ve been told by JWs any number of times that I’m not Christian, and by implication, that I do not have access to God. Muslims have claimed that I don’t keep commandments and therefore are not pleasing enough to God. If that’s not trying to exert control, I don't know what is.

Is this some kind of persecution complex sojourner? A genuine Christian has a quiet confidence that allows no conflicting opinion from outside to invade their inner spirituality because it is based soundly on the Bible. It doesn’t rule out further investigation, but relies on God’s word in its entirety, to determine all truth.

The truth leaves no room for doubt, otherwise we don’t really believe we have the truth. (James 1:5-8) Anything less than that is not worth having, nor will it take us where we want to go, IMO.

No one blocks access to God but we ourselves. We are either pleasing him by our beliefs and conduct in company with the rest of his obedient family, (both in heaven and on earth) or we are out on various branches (sometimes even twigs) where some have invented God in their own image, rather than letting his word mould them and their thinking. All those branches (and twigs) who do not have a firm attachment to the trunk and who are not fed by the root system, will die and be cut off and thrown into the fire. That is what the Bible says.....
But if you don’t care what the Bible says, where are your ideas coming from if you identify as a “Christian”? Are you inventing your own “brand” and in turn serving a god of your own invention. What do you believe will be the outcome of that?

 

[Bird123]

Verifiably false.

For most of them it's probably just a habit and not something thought through.

Wouldn't be a unique name, to be exact.

The name Jesus also, in its original form, is not unique, but the Christians changed it as though in translation (do we usually translate names?) and made it unique.

To be specific, according to Christians, as far as I've witnessed, Jesus is the name of the son. Or is the father also Jesus and the Holy spirit the Father and Jesus? Really, it is a mess you have.

Many scholars say He has more names than that.

First of all, that's certainly not permissable in Islam, and secondly, if a person told you their name, would you consider it appropriate to choose to call them whatever you want? Makes no difference?

I guess it comes down to what is more important to you: Religion and what mankind Believes to be true or what actually exists.

God is not going to give anyone a name for Himself simply because names are never needed. Mankind creates names and labels for everything. How many names for God can you think of? How many different Beliefs can you find? Beliefs do not count. The only thing that is real is what actually exists. God has never ever been about Beliefs or Believing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[sojourner]

Not being pleasing enough and not having access (whatever that means) are two different things.

Of course, if you don't follow Islam, one could hardly hope Allah is pleased with you. One would fear He's not.

As a whole I'm a little confused - were you once both a JW and a Muslim?

Both are attempts to control God’s hospitality and openness to all people. It’s that simple.

 

[sojourner]

Since Jehovah is the originator of all language, I believe he knows his name in all languages.....there are other languages than English, you know....

If you hold to the trinity and see Jesus as God, then why do people have no problem using “Jesus’ name? It’s a joke.

Not to use his name as you know it in your own language makes the Lord’s Prayer meaningless. How do you “hallow” (sanctify or make holy) a name you never use?

Doesn’t matter what God does or doesn’t know. That’s not the name in the Bible, is it? When you see an Italian Lamborghini, you don’t call it a “Larry.” You call it a Lamborghini, because that’s its name. Why do you feel you have to change “YHWH” to “Jehovah?”

Because I hold to the Trinity, I also believe that Jesus is fully human and has a name that is quite distinct from “YHWH.”

No it doesn’t make it meaningless. It brings great meaning. To “hallow” something is to set it apart, therefore it is set apart from other names by not pronouncing it. We don’t say “Percy be your name,” we say “your name is set apart.”

You’re really grasping at straws here.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

God never said God’s name was “Jehovah.”

You mean, in the Bible? No, there was no (recognizable) English language back then .

There was no ‘Jesus’ back then either, for that matter.

 

[sojourner]

Is this some kind of persecution complex sojourner? A genuine Christian has a quiet confidence that allows no conflicting opinion from outside to invade their inner spirituality because it is based soundly on the Bible

You’re gaslighting. Christians have a deep knowing, it’s true. However, it’s based on the indwelling Holy Spirit, not on the Bible.

Further, while each believer does have that inner knowing, a very important component of the Spiritual life is also community. Therefore, it matters what others think and say. It has nothing to do with a “complex.”

No one blocks access to God but we ourselves.

Then why do you judge others as being not real Christians? It’s none of your business.