What's going on in the minds?

[WhyIsThatSo]

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Hells bells, you even included "just fine"...[/QUOTE

WHY ? IS THAT SO ?

 

[McBell]

There are no thoughts without words..

Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

 

[McBell]

WHY ? IS THAT SO ?

um...
Because it is helpful to be able to communicate with others?

 

[Polymath257]

When I'm left alone, my thoughts are in concepts, memories and hopes. Dreams of visual images and feelings dominate my mind.

It is *never* until I am in front of a person speaking to me, or conversing here, that I am forced to translate thoughts into words... But I do suspect other people think in words to themselves, while alone. I believe, some people primarily think in words while alone, which is the opposite of me.

I'm curious. When you read, do you have a 'voice' that says the words you are reading?

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

When I took ASL Interpreting and Deaf culture studies, my Deaf professor (and all of them were Deaf or Hard of Hearing) said there was a family in a town somewhere in mid-west US where there's barely any civilization. Majority of the people were Deaf or Hard of Hearing and the main communication sign language. The daughter was a CODA (hearing Child of Deaf Adults) and she never used spoken language as a main if any form of communication.

When she was up in age, she went to college outside the city and vocal language, in this case English, became her second language with ASL her native.

I assume people have forms of language (or ways one communicates and reflects on their communication with others) but some do it visually, some auditory, kinesthetic, or a range of methods. Personally, I think while I type and practically every other thing. But in ASL classes we couldn't use our native language; so, although we weren't expected to "cut our inner voice" off, we were expected not to translate them in our heads but go strictly off of body language, facial expression, and signs to communicate.

Not everyone "hears" voices. Probably many Deaf and Hard of Hearing do if they become Deaf/HH later in life but it's not a hard and fast rule. Interesting nonetheless.

I understand very well what you are describing. But the problem is that people ( in general ) don't understand that true "hearing" has NOTHING to do with physical ears. True "hearing" means to "understand" ( standing beneath it, looking up into it ).

Do you "hear" (understand) me now ?

 

[Polymath257]

um...
Do people who are born deaf have an inner voice?

Probably not, although it may depend on the reason for the deafness.

I have heard the congenitally blind do not have internal images, but those who go blind later do *if* the vision center of the brain is not damaged.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

um...
Because it is helpful to be able to communicate with others?

Yes, it is helpful. But that doesn't answer why a completely deaf person can communicate fine even though
they have never physically heard a single word.

 

[Polymath257]

Hm. I honestly never thought anyone didn't "think words." The only time I can think of that, but I am not at all familiar personally, is if one is born completely Deaf or do not have acquisition to verbal language. I think way too much so I'm jealous.

So would that mean that someone is only able to think *after* acquiring a language? That seems unlikely to me.

I think words are added in later and can become dominant in some people, but that 'thoughts' are ultimately not associated with words, but with feelings and other internal states. The running commentary is only possible after you know a language.

 

[Cooky]

I'm curious. When you read, do you have a 'voice' that says the words you are reading?

No.

 

[Polymath257]

When I took ASL Interpreting and Deaf culture studies, my Deaf professor (and all of them were Deaf or Hard of Hearing) said there was a family in a town somewhere in mid-west US where there's barely any civilization. Majority of the people were Deaf or Hard of Hearing and the main communication sign language. The daughter was a CODA (hearing Child of Deaf Adults) and she never used spoken language as a main if any form of communication.

When she was up in age, she went to college outside the city and vocal language, in this case English, became her second language with ASL her native.

I assume people have forms of language (or ways one communicates and reflects on their communication with others) but some do it visually, some auditory, kinesthetic, or a range of methods. Personally, I think while I type and practically every other thing. But in ASL classes we couldn't use our native language; so, although we weren't expected to "cut our inner voice" off, we were expected not to translate them in our heads but go strictly off of body language, facial expression, and signs to communicate.

Not everyone "hears" voices. Probably many Deaf and Hard of Hearing do if they become Deaf/HH later in life but it's not a hard and fast rule. Interesting nonetheless.

And this leads to another question: do deaf people have internal 'voices' consisting of bodily movements?

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

Probably not, although it may depend on the reason for the deafness.

I have heard the congenitally blind do not have internal images, but those who go blind later do *if* the vision center of the brain is not damaged.

Makes no difference if a person is born deaf or not, because we already know every "word" that is, ever was, or ever will be.

 

[Polymath257]

to

The fact that you are writing these posts proves that you have inner speech ( thoughts).
If it did not, you wouldn't be able to communicate this way. There are those however who don't have to rely on
verbalized thoughts ( words ), they are called "telepaths".

The point is that *external* verbalized thoughts (words) do not imply *internal* verbalized thoughts. Telepathy is only relevant to the absence of external verbalized thoughts.

 

[Polymath257]

Makes no difference if a person is born deaf or not, because we already know every "word" that is, ever was, or ever will be.

Really? Do you know every word of Sumerian? I strongly doubt it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And this leads to another question: do deaf people have internal 'voices' consisting of bodily movements?

I'm guessing it depends on when that person lost their hearing. The story I posted is probably rare since it's a hearing dominate world regardless the language. I understand this perspective more than someone who has acquisition to language and does not think. It may be foreign but I wouldn't say it's impossible.

The other question in your other post, the OP is talking about actual hearing voices in your/your thoughts not understanding and wisdom. Many people have understanding and wisdom through practice, meditation, worship, or working with one's guru or so have you. But I do found it interesting that it's connected to god in one way or another. What do they call it, god of the gaps.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

Really? Do you know every word of Sumerian? I strongly doubt it.

Lets see now.....they had words for "cat" ( yep...I know what a cat is )
and a word for "dog" ( yep, know what a dog is ).
"language" is not about "words".

 

[Cooky]

And this leads to another question: do deaf people have internal 'voices' consisting of bodily movements?

I'm sorry. I just visualized that in my mind...

...It's a really good question though, in all seriousness.

 

[PureX]

Not many people think this way. They think when you "prove" a metaphysical cause false, it devalues even threatens their experience of it. I think it's quite good to understand the process behind human nature, thought, and even experiences without they needing to compromise the connection to it.

I heard it put this way: Synchronicity are god's way of speaking to me.

Once we accept there are explanations behind our unique personal experiences, they'd be a bit stronger than "faith" and have a full discussion about it without the need of Practice. But as long as we're in the mystic-realm, it's quite impossible. Science is cool but I think it does make it feel it invalidates people's mystical experiences.

I am seeing a marked increase these days in "scientism", which is the false belief that the scientific process is the only valid means of determining truth. And along with this belief, I am seeing a rejection of the metaphysical nature of consciousness. These folks seem to think that because science can explain the mechanics of human cognition, that human cognition is "nothing more" than the result of a complex bio-mechanical process. That the mechanics are all that's "real", and the cognitive results are a kind of illusion. This way of thinking worries me a lot, as it feels very reminiscent 1930s futurism, that led modern humans to view a horrific manifestation of fascism is a 'natural order' of things; justified by their new found knowledge of nature's mechanics.

 

[McBell]

Probably not, although it may depend on the reason for the deafness.

agreed

I have heard the congenitally blind do not have internal images, but those who go blind later do *if* the vision center of the brain is not damaged.

I have not been around blind persons enough to have discussions of this nature with any of them.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I am seeing a marked increase these days in "scientism", which is the false belief that the scientific process is the only valid means of determining truth. And along with this belief, I am seeing a rejection of the metaphysical nature of consciousness. These folks seem to think that because science can explain the mechanics of human cognition, that human cognition is "nothing more" than the result of a complex bio-mechanical process. That the mechanics are all that's "real", and the cognitive results are a kind of illusion. This way of thinking worries me a lot, as it feels very reminiscent 1930s futurism, that led modern humans to view a horrific manifestation of fascism is a 'natural order' of things; justified by their new found knowledge of nature's mechanics.

PureX…….I wouldn't be too concerned. What you are describing is what is going on, and has always gone on, on the surface....
in the "mainstream" of scientism. But I'm sure you know as well as I that most governments in the world are well aware of the
metaphysical nature of consciousness. They just like to keep all the good stuff for the few ( elite ). But because of the age we are
now entering, the status quo will change . And that change has already begun.

 

[McBell]

Makes no difference if a person is born deaf or not, because we already know every "word" that is, ever was, or ever will be.

Lets see now.....they had words for "cat" ( yep...I know what a cat is )
and a word for "dog" ( yep, know what a dog is ).
"language" is not about "words".

You really need to work on your back peddling game....