What would a reformed Islam look like?

[interminable]

As I am an Atheist with Soviet sympathies, you are probably right on that.

But for the sake of curiousity, do you think Islam cannot be reformed by definition without betraying the essence of the religion as submission to allah and his prophet or that it can only be changed in very narrow limits depending on scholarly interpretation of the Qu'ran and the Hadith through Ijithad?

Islam has three parts
Beliefs
Ethics
Practice

Practice laws are from Qur'an or prophet's statement how can we change them while they are explicitly convey a meaning???

And interpretation of Qur'an isn't in our hands to interpret as we wish.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Islam doesn't need to be changed. Instead u need to try to know Islam and then talk about it.

Why always this assumption that any position critical of Islam is one based on ignorance? Not just from you but from Islam's defenders in general. It's pretty arrogant to assume that you know what you're talking about and those who disagree simply do not.

Besides
what's the problem of Islam in my country?

It stifles freedom of thought & religion, it stifles freedom of expression, it doesn't permit the existence of anything other than a literalist interpretation of the Quran. Witness the Iranian man executed for heresy because he believed the story of Jonah was symbolic. It also forces those of other faiths to live by Islamic norms; Zoroastrians may not accept converts out of Islam and cannot (as far as I'm aware) build new temples or prayer halls for themselves though I'm open to being proven wrong on that last point.

البقره
وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَىٰ وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءَهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. (120)

Not really relevant since @Laika is neither a Christian or a Jew. It's also more than a tad hypocritical since Islam places enormous pressure on members of minority faiths to convert to Islam. Do you see this though, Laika? This is the sort of religious attitude you defend when you try and deflect criticism of Islam as western imperialism. Islam doesn't want your opinions because you're kafir; only your submission. If you ever become a Muslim you're not allowed to listen to non-Muslims. And remember; those who disbelieve in Allah are the worst of all creatures according to the religion you're defending.

I think if we want to start listening to people like u after 20 years there will never be any trace of Islam anymore.
It's better to say to each his own

I agree that if Muslims started listening to civilised opinions and adapting Islam accordingly then the faith would look so different as to be unrecognisable to most Muslims in 20 years. That's not a bad thing at all, though.

 

[idav]

So alot of people think Islam as a religion needs to be reformed to be brought more in line with liberal and secular values.

But what does a reformed Islam actually look like in your view? What are the most significant steps that Muslims could take to show that they can genuinely change their religion for the better? Is this simply about changing perceptions of Islam or are there substantive changes that you feel need to come from from within the Islamic Community?

E.g. Tolerance of homosexuality, changes in attitudes to women's rights, religious tolerance for non-muslims, apostates and atheists, etc.

Interpretation is important, changes the whole view of religious texts.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So alot of people think Islam as a religion needs to be reformed to be brought more in line with liberal and secular values.

But what does a reformed Islam actually look like in your view? What are the most significant steps that Muslims could take to show that they can genuinely change their religion for the better? Is this simply about changing perceptions of Islam or are there substantive changes that you feel need to come from from within the Islamic Community?

E.g. Tolerance of homosexuality, changes in attitudes to women's rights, religious tolerance for non-muslims, apostates and atheists, etc.

A reformed Islam would change in the following ways:

• No penalty for leaving Islam;
• The condemnation which allegedly exists in Islam would actually be enforced upon Muslims because it causes demonstrable harm;
• Non-Muslims wouldn't be beholden to Islamic laws;
• Islam would tolerate the existence of differing beliefs & points of view;
• Homosexuals would not be discriminated against in any way;
• Interpretation of the Quran would be publicly tolerated - not just privately tolerated but publicly condemned;
• Islamic clerics would step back from governance and permit secular governments to take control of Muslim countries;
• Islam wouldn't condemn democracy as kufir or shirk;
• Less emphasis would be placed on tradition and mindless obedience to authority;
• Freedom of religion would be applied in Muslim societies and would include freedom from religion - including the aforementioned conversion out of Islam;
• Atheists would be recognised as being worthy of legal rights & protections the same as everyone else;
• Status as a Muslim would not be hereditary - i.e. it would not be presumed a child is Muslim simply because their father is
• Women would be granted equal rights & be considered of equal worth;

I'll probably think of others later on so I'll add those in another post (or this one if nobody responds to it).

 

[interminable]

Why always this assumption that any position critical of Islam is one based on ignorance? Not just from you but from Islam's defenders in general. It's pretty arrogant to assume that you know what you're talking about and those who disagree simply do not.

This should be clear for u at least.
Haven't u brought some verses from Quran and I brought some other verses completely different????

What does that mean?

It means not u but all of those who critics Islam don't have a right to resort to some verses of the Qur'an or even prophet's statements while they are not expert and their knowledge doesn't encompass the whole religion.

Did u know some verses of the Qur'an were abrogated by some other verses???
Did u know in the Qur'an god says cut the hand of a robber without any conditions but in Shia at least it has more than 20 conditions.

Did u know there are lots of forged hadith in our books that even we don't pay attention to.

Did u know that it takes more than 15 years for a clergyman (depends on his talent )in Shia religion to just be able to understand hadith let alone to be a grand scholar

There are some other factors that I skip

It stifles freedom of thought & religion, it stifles freedom of expression, it doesn't permit the existence of anything other than a literalist interpretation of the Quran. Witness the Iranian man executed for heresy because he believed the story of Jonah was symbolic. It also forces those of other faiths to live by Islamic norms; Zoroastrians may not accept converts out of Islam and cannot (as far as I'm aware) build new temples or prayer halls for themselves though I'm open to being proven wrong on that last point.

Did u know minorities have their own lawmakers in our parliament and they make laws alongside of other Muslims????

Besides they aren't forced to do according to our faith
It's interesting to know that there is a street in Tehran that I think all minorities have their own holy places and worship their gods

Not really relevant since @Laika is neither a Christian or a Jew. It's also more than a tad hypocritical since Islam places enormous pressure on members of minority faiths to convert to Islam. Do you see this though, Laika? This is the sort of religious attitude you defend when you try and deflect criticism of Islam as western imperialism. Islam doesn't want your opinions because you're kafir; only your submission. If you ever become a Muslim you're not allowed to listen to non-Muslims. And remember; those who disbelieve in Allah are the worst of all creatures according to the religion you're defending.

This verse is about jew and Christians let alone infidels. Besides as I repeated several times those who reject causality can we make with them a rational discuss or debate??

When they don't even accept causality how they expect from us to listen to them??

I agree that if Muslims started listening to civilised opinions and adapting Islam accordingly then the faith would look so different as to be unrecognisable to most Muslims in 20 years. That's not a bad thing at all, though.

This is what Satan wants. Forgetting religion of god and doing just the opposite of god wants

 

[Laika]

Why always this assumption that any position critical of Islam is one based on ignorance? Not just from you but from Islam's defenders in general. It's pretty arrogant to assume that you know what you're talking about and those who disagree simply do not.




It stifles freedom of thought & religion, it stifles freedom of expression, it doesn't permit the existence of anything other than a literalist interpretation of the Quran. Witness the Iranian man executed for heresy because he believed the story of Jonah was symbolic. It also forces those of other faiths to live by Islamic norms; Zoroastrians may not accept converts out of Islam and cannot (as far as I'm aware) build new temples or prayer halls for themselves though I'm open to being proven wrong on that last point.




Not really relevant since @Laika is neither a Christian or a Jew. It's also more than a tad hypocritical since Islam places enormous pressure on members of minority faiths to convert to Islam. Do you see this though, Laika? This is the sort of religious attitude you defend when you try and deflect criticism of Islam as western imperialism. Islam doesn't want your opinions because you're kafir; only your submission. If you ever become a Muslim you're not allowed to listen to non-Muslims. And remember; those who disbelieve in Allah are the worst of all creatures according to the religion you're defending.




I agree that if Muslims started listening to civilised opinions and adapting Islam accordingly then the faith would look so different as to be unrecognisable to most Muslims in 20 years. That's not a bad thing at all, though.

I see it @A Greased Scotsman, but do you really want a Communist helping you destroy a major world religion?

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[YmirGF]

اI think if we want to start listening to people like u after 20 years there will never be any trace of Islam anymore.

We can hope, at the very least. Would the world really be so bad without Islam?

 

[YmirGF]

Frankly, it looks like collapsed into non-existence by its own weight. The doctrine is remarkably bold in its insistence that it must be right no matter what and that there is no difference between reformation and apostasy.

A very good analysis, @LuisDantas

It is heartening that I'm not the only one who sees Islam, as we know it, collapsing in the not too distant future. It is simply top-heavy with authoritarian twaddle that simply doesn't pass the smell test anymore.

Personally a "reformed" Islam would look like secular society. Religion would take a back seat and simply cease to be a driving force in peoples lives. The former followers would take charge of their own lives and stop caring what an old book tells them has to be. In effect, the religion would go out of fashion and hopefully soon be forgotten.

 

[interminable]

We can hope, at the very least. Would the world really be so bad without Islam?

Would the world really be so good with atheists???

 

[YmirGF]

Would the world really be so good with atheists???

My area of the world is perfectly glorious. It's a natural wonderland and there are a lot of atheists here.
So, yeah, it does work out just fine.

 

[interminable]

My area of the world is perfectly glorious. It's a natural wonderland and there are a lot of atheists here.
So, yeah, it does work out just fine.

Here too

 

[YmirGF]

Here too

You have a lot of atheists too? That's great news.

 

[interminable]

You have a lot of atheists too. That's great news.

[emoji1] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16]
I like this one so much
[emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16]

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

This should be clear for u at least.
Haven't u brought some verses from Quran and I brought some other verses completely different????

What does that mean?

That the Quran can be used to justify opposing things - such as peace & violence towards others. This is hardly a feature unique to the Quran as a holy text but it's also not unique to books claimed to be divine revelation and which actually aren't.

It means not u but all of those who critics Islam don't have a right to resort to some verses of the Qur'an or even prophet's statements while they are not expert and their knowledge doesn't encompass the whole religion.

So what about the Muslims who use verses to justify violence? Are they equally not authorities? What about your own government which carries out lethal sentences against its citizens using Islamic law as a justification?

Did u know some verses of the Qur'an were abrogated by some other verses???

Indeed. Quranic abrogation is ironically one of the strongest arguments against the Quran being the inerrant word of God. If some verses can suddenly stop applying then then it what sense is it perfect - surely the fact that it contains abrogated verses makes the book redundant at least in part? Also, since the verses typically used to justify violence were generally written after the ones advocating religious tolerance - can we consider the peaceful verses abrogated? That seems to be what jihadists think.

Did u know in the Qur'an god says cut the hand of a robber without any conditions but in Shia at least it has more than 20 conditions.

While that's a somewhat more progressive step to take (and that's to be commended), it could be argued that this is 'innovation' and thus not Islam. That said, I still think it's a step (albeit a small one) in the right direction. It'd be interesting to see if Shia Islam eventually does away with such brutal punishments.

Did u know there are lots of forged hadith in our books that even we don't pay attention to.

Yep. That's why the concept of 'sahih' exists.

Did u know that it takes more than 15 years for a clergyman (depends on his talent )in Shia religion to just be able to understand hadith let alone to be a grand scholar

No I didn't. A shame. Such a one could be studying something beneficial like science or books other than Islamic scripture.

Did u know minorities have their own lawmakers in our parliament and they make laws alongside of other Muslims????

I believe it was you who brought that to my attention the last time. Thanks for that

Besides they aren't forced to do according to our faith

I just gave you an example of how they are; they can't accept people who convert to Zoroastrianism out of Islam because apostasy is a crime under Islamic law. They're affected by this law as much as Muslims.

It's interesting to know that there is a street in Tehran that I think all minorities have their own holy places and worship their gods

Oh wow, a whole street? That's so open-minded... /sarcasm

This verse is about jew and Christians let alone infidels. Besides as I repeated several times those who reject causality can we make with them a rational discuss or debate??

Jewish & Christian creationists do accept causality (except when it applies to God) but the verse doesn't mention this; it just treats them all as non-Muslims and thus can be safely ignored.

When they don't even accept causality how they expect from us to listen to them??

The same way any rational person would: by listening to someone who disagreed with them and coming up with suitable counterarguments. On the subject of causality for instance; you insist that everything which exists must have a cause except for Allah for no other reason than the convenient excuse 'because he's Allah'. That excuse can be applied to an infinite number of equally theoretical Creators which existed before Allah, or even to the Universe itself. There's no reason bar your theological convenience for us to assume there's only one Creator which must be your god.

This is what Satan wants. Forgetting religion of god and doing just the opposite of god wants

So is it Satanic to want to end slavery because God is okay with it? After all Islam says it's piety to free your slaves but the doctrine doesn't go so far as to abolish slavery. If doing the opposite of Islam is automatically Satanic then all Muslims who believe so should move to the Islamic world which can then seal itself in a bubble and cut off all contact with the outside world to avoid Satanic influence. We can continue evolving while the Islamic world stagnates.

Honestly, for all that Christianity & Islam decry Satan as utter evil, you guys do a bang up job of making him seem like a good guy who's just had some seriously bad press.

 

[Notanumber]

This should be clear for u at least.
Haven't u brought some verses from Quran and I brought some other verses completely different????

What does that mean?

It means not u but all of those who critics Islam don't have a right to resort to some verses of the Qur'an or even prophet's statements while they are not expert and their knowledge doesn't encompass the whole religion.

Did u know some verses of the Qur'an were abrogated by some other verses???
Did u know in the Qur'an god says cut the hand of a robber without any conditions but in Shia at least it has more than 20 conditions.

Did u know there are lots of forged hadith in our books that even we don't pay attention to.

Did u know that it takes more than 15 years for a clergyman (depends on his talent )in Shia religion to just be able to understand hadith let alone to be a grand scholar

There are some other factors that I skip






Did u know minorities have their own lawmakers in our parliament and they make laws alongside of other Muslims????

Besides they aren't forced to do according to our faith
It's interesting to know that there is a street in Tehran that I think all minorities have their own holy places and worship their gods




This verse is about jew and Christians let alone infidels. Besides as I repeated several times those who reject causality can we make with them a rational discuss or debate??

When they don't even accept causality how they expect from us to listen to them??




This is what Satan wants. Forgetting religion of god and doing just the opposite of god wants

The Quran is full of weasel words.

Looks like Satan is my kind of guy. He can’t be any worse than Allah.

 

[interminable]

That the Quran can be used to justify opposing things - such as peace & violence towards others. This is hardly a feature unique to the Quran as a holy text but it's also not unique to books claimed to be divine revelation and which actually aren't.

That's way we say a person should be expert and knowledgeable to be able to find god's order
This will be harder when a verse is about jurisprudence

So what about the Muslims who use verses to justify violence? Are they equally not authorities? What about your own government which carries out lethal sentences against its citizens using Islamic law as a justification?

Look
There are lots of stupid Muslims namely wahabi they are mere puppet of US they use Qur'an as they wish. Their place would be in hell as both Shia scholars and sunny in university of alazhar in Egypt said wahabi isn't a religion belongs to prophet muhammad pbuh

Indeed. Quranic abrogation is ironically one of the strongest arguments against the Quran being the inerrant word of God. If some verses can suddenly stop applying then then it what sense is it perfect - surely the fact that it contains abrogated verses makes the book redundant at least in part? Also, since the verses typically used to justify violence were generally written after the ones advocating religious tolerance - can we consider the peaceful verses abrogated? That seems to be what jihadists think.

Nope
They can be for testing belivers and in other cases show the eloquence of quran and more importantly can be used as a virtue for Ali pbuh in one case.

Besides that's why I say there is a need to be expert to understand which verse is abrogated or....

While that's a somewhat more progressive step to take (and that's to be commended), it could be argued that this is 'innovation' and thus not Islam. That said, I still think it's a step (albeit a small one) in the right direction. It'd be interesting to see if Shia Islam eventually does away with such brutal punishments.

U think we chose this way 40 years ago
Nope this is a way of Shia jurisprudence from the beginning

Yep. That's why the concept of 'sahih' exists.

Even for hadith there is a need of experts
For example Bahaie sect use some Hadithes that we won't never accept but they easily use them to prove themselves

No I didn't. A shame. Such a one could be studying something beneficial like science or books other than Islamic scripture.

Philosophy is one of them. history , Arabic language and logic jurisprudence and ...are among them.

I believe it was you who brought that to my attention the last time. Thanks for that

Not at all

I just gave you an example of how they are; they can't accept people who convert to Zoroastrianism out of Islam because apostasy is a crime under Islamic law. They're affected by this law as much as Muslims.

The person can convert to other religion but he or she shouldn't say that in public
Those who say their conversion publicly will be punished.
So they can hide their new religion or travel to other countries

Oh wow, a whole street? That's so open-minded... /sarcasm

They are in some provinces

Jewish & Christian creationists do accept causality (except when it applies to God) but the verse doesn't mention this; it just treats them all as non-Muslims and thus can be safely ignored.

I just made an example.

The same way any rational person would: by listening to someone who disagreed with them and coming up with suitable counterarguments. On the subject of causality for instance; you insist that everything which exists must have a cause except for Allah for no other reason than the convenient excuse 'because he's Allah'. That excuse can be applied to an infinite number of equally theoretical Creators which existed before Allah, or even to the Universe itself. There's no reason bar your theological convenience for us to assume there's only one Creator which must be your god.

I'll create new thread soon god willing in this regard

So is it Satanic to want to end slavery because God is okay with it? After all Islam says it's piety to free your slaves but the doctrine doesn't go so far as to abolish slavery. If doing the opposite of Islam is automatically Satanic then all Muslims who believe so should move to the Islamic world which can then seal itself in a bubble and cut off all contact with the outside world to avoid Satanic influence. We can continue evolving while the Islamic world stagnates.

Honestly, for all that Christianity & Islam decry Satan as utter evil, you guys do a bang up job of making him seem like a good guy who's just had some seriously bad press.

So u want god to abolished slavery while the enemies of Islam hadn't abolish that
How strange!!

Besides they could be familiar with Islam and Muslims so convert to Islam.

 

[interminable]

The Quran is full of weasel words.

Looks like Satan is my kind of guy. He can’t be any worse than Allah.

That's why an expert and knowledgeable man is needed to interpret it.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

[QUOTE="interminable, post: 4998791, member: 59767"I think if we want to start listening to people like u after 20 years there will never be any trace of Islam anymore. It's better to say to each his own[/QUOTE]
In other words, you admit it can't be reformed.

The problem with Islam is that it rests entirely on the words of the Quran. Once you say, as some do, that some passages were intended for particular situations that Muhammad was facing, then anything is open to re-interpretation or rejection. Much as I dislike them, the Evangelical Protestants have a point about the Bible: it's the only justification for Christianity.

Naturally, I'd like to see both books abandoned. No more Islam or Christianity would go a long way to no more bigotry and persecution.

 

[Spiderman]

For a reformed Islam, much of the Koran and the lifestyle of the Prophet Muhammad would have to be considered outdated and straight up inhumane and sick.

But prostrating and praying five times a day, modesty, fasting during Ramadan, and pilgrimage to Mecca would stay the same. The primary practices and pillars of Islam I find to be beautiful, it is the form of Government (Sharia law) and some of the verses in the Koran and the lifestyle of the Prophet and early Muslims I find disturbing.

 

[Kirran]

Do you think that Muslims should disown the governments of Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc that potray themselves as "Islamic" as either dangerous or false interpretations of Islam that violate human rights in much the same way they say ISIS are not real Muslims?

Yeah, a good idea. There are those who do.

Yeah, change comes from within.

What would a reformed Islam look like?

It would be reasonable and peaceful as the Ahmadiyya Islam is. Right? Please
Regards

Look who has returned!

البقره
وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَىٰ وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءَهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. (120)


I think if we want to start listening to people like u after 20 years there will never be any trace of Islam anymore.
It's better to say to each his own

There are Muslims I totally approve of, and who I don't want to become anything other than Muslim.

I'm not a Jew or a Christian, admittedly.