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What would a reformed Islam look like?

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So alot of people think Islam as a religion needs to be reformed to be brought more in line with liberal and secular values.

But what does a reformed Islam actually look like in your view? What are the most significant steps that Muslims could take to show that they can genuinely change their religion for the better? Is this simply about changing perceptions of Islam or are there substantive changes that you feel need to come from from within the Islamic Community?

E.g. Tolerance of homosexuality, changes in attitudes to women's rights, religious tolerance for non-muslims, apostates and atheists, etc.
 
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MD

qualiaphile
More Maajid Nawaz, less Anjem Choudary.
More Irshad Manji, less Tariq Ramadan
More Ataturk, less Erdogan

Basically rational secularists and non literalists. These are generally small populations in much of the Muslim world however.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
More Maajid Nawaz, less Anjem Choudary.
More Irshad Manji, less Tariq Ramadan
More Ataturk, less Erdogan

Basically rational secularists and non literalists. These are generally small populations in much of the Muslim world however.

Come on MD. you can be much more specific than that. I'm sure you can list about five things you want to change pretty easily. ;)
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
But what does a reformed Islam actually look like in your view? What are the most significant steps that Muslims could take to show that they can genuinely change their religion for the better? Is this simply about changing perceptions of Islam or are there substantive changes that you feel need to come from from within the Islamic Community?

Muslims by themselves wont be able reform their religion, it will have to be forced.
Cut off the funding, supplies, and businesses tied to countries that side with Islam and see how fast change happens.
Basic reform would look like modern Christianity, while in depth reform would involve changing the way programs such as education work.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I don't think it should be reformed to come in line with liberal and secular values. I think it should be reformed to better express its intrinsic human values.

A distinction without a difference, perhaps, but rather more authentic.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't think it should be reformed to come in line with liberal and secular values. I think it should be reformed to better express its intrinsic human values.

A distinction without a difference, perhaps, but rather more authentic.

Do you think that Muslims should disown the governments of Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc that potray themselves as "Islamic" as either dangerous or false interpretations of Islam that violate human rights in much the same way they say ISIS are not real Muslims?

Ultimately, Whether thats true or not is up to Muslims to decide based on their own conscience and their understanding of the will of Allah and Muhammad, but that would seem to be the effective content of an Islamic Reformation that many westerners are asking for. I don't think its unreasonable for Muslims to criticise it as western ideas or imperialism because genuine change has to come from within the Islamic Community than outside of it. Whilst that may appear trivial in western eyes it poses considerable risks to activists who live in the Middle East in which such views and activities would be illegal.
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Islam doesn't need to be changed. Instead u need to try to know Islam and then talk about it.
Besides
what's the problem of Islam in my country?

I would say the use of Sharia law as a basis for law in the country is problematic from a secular view, such as the criminalisation of homosexuality (including use of the death penalty):

LGBT rights in Iran - Wikipedia

Your welcome to explain how this is appropriate in Islam and Iran if you wish.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If it were my call, I'd reform Islam to bring it more in line with reason. That means challenging any beliefs or practices that run counter to reason and are established only by tradition or authority.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What would a reformed Islam look like?

It would be reasonable and peaceful as the Ahmadiyya Islam is. Right? Please
Regards

I am not familiar with Ahmadiyya Islam so my view here is based on what I have read on wikipedia for just looking it up. its commitment to the "peaceful propagation of Islam" and its emphasis on Jihad as peaceful and primarily an inner struggle for purification, as well as the fourth Caliph stating "Islam rejects and condemns every form of terrorism" sounds very encouraging though. :)
 

interminable

منتظر
I would say the use of Sharia law as a basis for law in the country is problematic from a secular view, such as the criminalisation of homosexuality (including use of the death penalty):

LGBT rights in Iran - Wikipedia

Your welcome to explain how this is appropriate in Islam and Iran if you wish.
البقره
وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَىٰ وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءَهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. (120)


I think if we want to start listening to people like u after 20 years there will never be any trace of Islam anymore.
It's better to say to each his own
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
البقره
وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَىٰ وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءَهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. (120)


I think if we want to start listening to people like u after 20 years there will never be any trace of Islam anymore.
It's better to say to each his own

As I am an Atheist with Soviet sympathies, you are probably right on that. :D

But for the sake of curiousity, do you think Islam cannot be reformed by definition without betraying the essence of the religion as submission to allah and his prophet or that it can only be changed in very narrow limits depending on scholarly interpretation of the Qu'ran and the Hadith through Ijithad?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
So alot of people think Islam as a religion needs to be reformed to be brought more in line with liberal and secular values.

But what does a reformed Islam actually look like in your view? What are the most significant steps that Muslims could take to show that they can genuinely change their religion for the better? Is this simply about changing perceptions of Islam or are there substantive changes that you feel need to come from from within the Islamic Community?

E.g. Tolerance of homosexuality, changes in attitudes to women's rights, religious tolerance for non-muslims, apostates and atheists, etc.
It's not about reformed , it's about back to origine.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But what does a reformed Islam actually look like in your view?
Frankly, it looks like collapsed into non-existence by its own weight. The doctrine is remarkably bold in its insistence that it must be right no matter what and that there is no difference between reformation and apostasy.

But if anyone can make it work, more power to them.

The main issues are, IMO:

Extreme theocentrism

Islaam actually has very little doctrine and, since I learned better about it, does not qualify as a religion at all by my criteria. It does not so much teach its own variation of the Golden Rule as it teaches people to be one of the Tribe of God and to watch out for those nasty Kuffar out there in the wider world.

In essence, the general message of Islaam is that you should forego of religious wisdom as well as of personal responsibility, third-party both to the God of the Qur'an, and spread your tribe mindlessly as if people were bacteria and trust God to sort the resulting mess.

Such a jaundiced doctrine can't really be saved.

Lack of course correction mechanisms

Islaam lacks Dharma, as well as the means to attain it within its own parameters. It relies way too much on the glorified bet of the incorruptible truth and wisdom of the Qur'an. It encourages a tribal mentality and social and political measures to curb any significant questioning, going all the way to violent inner conflict when the issues raise too much.

Far too much of what passes for Islaamic practice is wasted on ultimately pointless discussions about what the Qur'an says and what should be understood as the correct understanding of that text. And since it is indeed a text, those discussions can never be settled, nor would that even be a good thing without the backing of actual religious wisdom to validate it.

Far too many Muslims actually disapprove of that, with considerable scriptural support, for everyone's loss.

Emphasis on distinctions between believers and unbelievers

Another main reason why I don't even think of Islaam as a religion anymore is because it has very little to say that does not revolve around the all-important distinction between the believers, the members of the Islaamic tribe, and the misguided kuffar who ought to learn better for their own good while they still have the chance.

That makes for poor politics and worse doctrine.


What are the most significant steps that Muslims could take to show that they can genuinely change their religion for the better?
Learning to deal with religious wisdom constructively would be a very significant, quite possibly decisive, step.

Openly pursuing and valuing it would be the next, even better, step.

It would be very worthwhile for any Muslim to develop the skills of engaging on religious discourse and practice without feeling or being pressured into the need to quote from the Qur'an to supposedly validate their findings and beliefs immediately after.

Is this simply about changing perceptions of Islam
No, although that will be a necessary and very painful prerequisite. The general perceptions of Islaam are still not nearly as critical as they will eventually have to be.

or are there substantive changes that you feel need to come from from within the Islamic Community?
Those changes are indeed necessary.

E.g. Tolerance of homosexuality, changes in attitudes to women's rights, religious tolerance for non-muslims, apostates and atheists, etc.
All of those, although most are consequences of the important conquest of attaining better religious awareness and wisdom than a tribal mindset can sustain.

The core, decisive improvement - one that can conceivably save but is more likely to break Islaam instead - is learning to accept that there is indeed such a thing as a valid religious life that does not have to be validated by the God of the Qur'an.


The Baha'i Faith.
It sure attempts to fix a lot of what is wrong in Islaam, and mostly succeeds.

Still, there is the significant issue that Muslims are just not very likely to convert into Bahais in very significant numbers, for the very reasons why Islaam needs reformation in the first place.
What would a reformed Islam look like?

It would be reasonable and peaceful as the Ahmadiyya Islam is. Right? Please
Regards

But significantly less obsessed with the Qur'an, IMO.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I am not familiar with Ahmadiyya Islam so my view here is based on what I have read on wikipedia for just looking it up. its commitment to the "peaceful propagation of Islam" and its emphasis on Jihad as peaceful and primarily an inner struggle for purification, as well as the fourth Caliph stating "Islam rejects and condemns every form of terrorism" sounds very encouraging though. :)
One may like to access the official website of the Ahmadiyya Islam to know more about it.

Regards
 
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