1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What would a Muslim do?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Raymann, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    56,779
    Ratings:
    +25,924
    Religion:
    Love
    I answered this already. Read my answer.
     
  2. Raymann

    Raymann Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    214
    Ratings:
    +106
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    "And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own― their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. " (an-Nur, 24/6-9).

    This is interesting, it says "their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times".
    What does that mean?
    I would guess that means the accuser can offer his own evidence as long as he brings 4 witnesses.
    Is that correct?

    If that is correct then this doesn't change what I said initially on the OP.
    A person cannot accuse his wife unless he brings at least 4 witnesses.
     
  3. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    19,057
    Ratings:
    +11,293
    Religion:
    atheist
    So I can assume you speak on behalf of all followers of Hello Kitty on this?
    I'm asking this on behalf on the entire internet.
     
  4. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    19,656
    Ratings:
    +6,702
    Religion:
    deist
    No Raymann. Your definition of adultery is wrong. Adultery is not 'having sex outside of marriage' it is about a spouse having sex with another person other than their spouse.

    The Husband could do any of several things, but what would you do? What would be your response if you found your wife copulating with somebody else?

    What is your idea of justice for adultery?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Raymann

    Raymann Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    214
    Ratings:
    +106
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    My definition of adultery is sex with at least one person being married.
    But in the Islamic world that is not the right definition.
    Zina is the word used and it involves adultery, fornication and any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage.
    That's why I defined it the Islamic way, in short sex outside of marriage.
    I already said in a previous post (#19) how I would answer my own question.
    The problem is that if I answer it using Islamic laws in mind I don't see justice accomplished.
    An adulterer never gets punished unless he or she confesses.
    The rules on adultery were created by Allah.
    How can they be that bad?
     
  6. Raymann

    Raymann Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    214
    Ratings:
    +106
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    That's the point, at least 4 witnesses are required.
    Not only that, they have to be men.
    Not only that, they need to be of upright character (sinless)
    Not only that, they have to have seen the actual penetration.

    Basically Allah makes it impossible to prosecute an adulterer but Allah, on the other hand, imposes a very harsh punishment (death by stoning or 100 lashes)
    Go figure.
     
  7. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    14,517
    Ratings:
    +9,534
    Religion:
    Osmanli Nakshibedi Way, Sufism
    Don't include me in that statement. So not the entire Internet
     
  8. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    19,057
    Ratings:
    +11,293
    Religion:
    atheist
    Heh...the ridiculous overstatement was kinda the point @Debater Slayer was making, so I ran with it. I wouldn't take it too seriously.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    955
    Ratings:
    +234
    Maybe I can help the conversation on.

    (attempting to describe the very likely argument of the OP from their point of view)

    • It makes no sense a husband can't get the officials to punish his wife by telling them to.
    • It is "absolutely certain" that Aisha committed adultery because...
    • The prophet Muhammad saws waited for one month (not suffient to verify absence of pregnancy according to the Quran) to know Aisha was not pregnant with the man she committed adultery with
    • obviously the Prophet Muhammad saws wasn't having sex with his wife Aisha because ....and they couldn't have had children because....
    • He invented the stoning verse to protect his ego
    • The entire Qur'an was written by Prophet Muhammad saws himself
    • The reason he knew about the beginning and the end of world is that he was a traveller... Here and there..
     
  10. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    46,687
    Ratings:
    +15,104
    Religion:
    Advocate of letting go of theism. Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.
    I REALLY feel that you should learn more about Islaam, lest you end up harming the expression of your intention of Right Speech.

    You view is so idealized that it probably never resembled anything that actually existed, or could ever exist.

    More pragmatically, I don't think that it is a good practice to automatically criticize any questioning of Islaam's merits as presumed religion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    14,517
    Ratings:
    +9,534
    Religion:
    Osmanli Nakshibedi Way, Sufism
    ok, Thank you
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    19,656
    Ratings:
    +6,702
    Religion:
    deist
    No Rayman.
    You told how you would react if you were a Muslim.

    You clearly have a problem with how Muslims cope with adultery, etc.

    However, I am glad that you don't have enough witnesses because killing women by stoning is not my idea of justice, gender equality, humanity etc.

    If I found my wife copulating with a man I would sit down, in fact I would ask her if she was ok. If she replied 'yes' then my life as I know it now would be over. If she replied 'no' then I would attack the man and subdue him for the police to take away.

    But in any event or reply I would acknowledge the answer and then consider how I could move forward. My wife would not have committed any crime, though. Busting a husband's heart by adultery is not a crime
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,688
    Ratings:
    +3,563
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    It means if I'm not mistaken you're literally swearing to God himself.

    This is wrong. This is why I said you need to use google. This is not the definition of Zina.

    "Zināʾ (زِنَاء) or zina (زِنًى or زِنًا) is an Islamic law concerning unlawful sexual relations between male and female who are not married to one another through a nikah. It includes extramarital sex and premarital sex."

    Zina - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Zina

    "Unlawful sexual intercourse; fornication or adultery."

    Zina - Oxford Islamic Studies Online


    "Zina means fornication and adultery, and it is considered a major sin in Islam. Fornication is the sexual intercourse that takes place between two people who are not married to each other, and adultery is sexual intercourse between two people, one or both of which are married, but not married to their co-adulterer."

    What is Zina in Islam?



    So you just got three definitions from three different websites. Zina implies sexual intercourse between two people without a Nikah or a temporary marriage (which is also controversial among Muslim scholars). Since there is no boyfriend or girlfriend in Islam if a man has sex with another woman and both are unmarried they are committing Zina. If they are both married and the man or woman is having sex outside that marriage they're committing Zina, you get it now?

    What justice are you referring to?
     
  14. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,688
    Ratings:
    +3,563
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    This is not entirely true. Depending on the fiqh a jurist subscribes to, this may or may not be the case. Remember, Zina is not simply just sex, kissing is also considered a part of the definition of Zina as well other acts that have expounded the definition however since Zina is a Hudud sin, it depends on how the jurists interpret it:

    "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle as saying: “Allah has decreed for every son of Adam his share of zina, which he will inevitably commit. The zina of the eyes is looking, the zina of the tongue is speaking, one may wish and desire, and the private parts confirm that or deny it.”

    Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:77:609, Sahih Muslim, 33:6421


    Where does it say that specifically four men?

    Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di said in his Tafseer (1/563):

    “Why did they not produce four witnesses?” [al-Noor 24:13], i.e., why did the accusers not bring witnesses to the things they accused them of? “four witnesses” i.e., of good character. “Since they (the slanderers) have not produced witnesses! Then with Allaah they are the liars” – even if they are certain about that in themselves, they are liars in Allaah’s judgement, because Allaah has forbidden them to speak of that without four witnesses. Hence Allaah says: “Then with Allaah they are the liars”, and He did not say “Then they are the liars”. All of this points to the grave sanctity of the Muslim’s honour, so it is not permissible to make accusations against it without establishing testimony."

    The witnesses have to be of upright character does not specifically mention only male or female.

    It doesn't say that, now you're making up s*****. Quite obviously when one cheats it's (more than likely) in the confines of privacy which is why the accusation of Zina is very serious because the Qur'an specifically warns against falsely accusing someone of a sinful act.
     
    #34 Epic Beard Man, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  15. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4,591
    Ratings:
    +2,004
    Religion:
    Christian
    Take a picture?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,688
    Ratings:
    +3,563
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    This didn’t help the conversation this is just a ridiculous attempt to impart your own baseless uneducated and nonsensical claims.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,688
    Ratings:
    +3,563
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    This is rich coming from you. You have no room to talk about having knowledge on Islam.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    955
    Ratings:
    +234
    It is what the op is getting at... He's been talking about it for a long time. Refute as much as you like. It will lead to nowhere. Apologies for the interruption though, I didn't think it'd be a nuisance. I'll take my baseless, uneducated and nonsensical claims elsewhere.
     
  19. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,305
    Ratings:
    +820
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    The Qu'ran says I can lightly beat my wife as her accuser, though.
     
  20. Raymann

    Raymann Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    Messages:
    214
    Ratings:
    +106
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Raymann said:
    Zina is the word used and it involves adultery, fornication and any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage.


    That's exactly what I said. Read it again.
    Maybe I should rephrase it for you.
    What I said is exactly what you showed in the definitions.
    We agree with the definition despite the fact you didn't understand the way I said it.
     
Loading...