It’s a promise and pledge of Christ that I believe He kept but that most Christians missed because I believe they misread the signs.
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What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
It’s a promise and pledge of Christ that I believe He kept but that most Christians missed because I believe they misread the signs.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Well. There are many faiths and I believe the answers show that very clearly.
In my faith, I dont believe there any kind of return of anyone, including Jesus. And I call myself a Muslim.
I believe the return of the Messiah is a concocted belief. I know thats a bit of an offensive statement but I say that in respect of the question in the opening post.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 1Concerning the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us-whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter-asserting that the day of the LORD has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” ...20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
Acts 1:11 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” ...20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
Acts 1:11 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
So Jesus never promised to come back... then Paul is wrong? And John didn't receive this message from an angel that included those words that were alleged Jesus speaking? And John was wrong assuming it was Jesus talking to him? And Luke supposedly quotes some angel that says this "same" Jesus will come back. It doesn't say the "spirit of Christ". It says "Jesus". Which I know means nothing to Baha'is, because they interpret the NT in anyway that fits their beliefs. But, that is manipulation of what is supposedly the "Word of God". But, that's okay with me. The Christians did it to the Jews. But, does that make it right? Does it make it the Truth?
Also, Paul says that Jesus won't come back until the "rebellion" occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. And could you remind me... What rebellion and what man of lawlessness is it that Baha'is believe happened prior to Baha'u'llah coming?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It does not say the body of Jesus. That was just assumed.
The body of Jesus could not come back from heaven because it died on earth and it never ascended to heaven.
Jesus considered the Spirit important, not the body. Then the Christians changed everything Jesus said and worshiped His resurrected body.
John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
43:60-61 And if We please, We could make among you angels to be successors in the land. And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.
4:159: And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
In our opinion.
Baha'u'llah fulfilled Paul's sentiments of the Lawless One, he claims himself as a man, to be the father of Yeshua, residing in the temple of God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 said:
So literally this says by our Words, which can happen on here legally, that when I say Baha'u'llah was a fake, this fulfils lots of bits in the Bible, of Christ fighting the fake prophets, and idols in the world.
To be legal lets make a start to the case of where and why Baha'i is fake:
The Law teaches here is down near Hell (Deuteronomy 32:22), and Judgement Day is still impinging (Deuteronomy 29:19-27), Baha'u'llah overwrites this contexts saying we now have peace.
The Messiah was meant to bring the Tribes in, and resolve the Curse (Deuteronomy 30:1-10); Baha'u'llah was not fulfilment of the Bible in the slightest, to be honest he didn't even know what most of it was on about, as the contexts are not relayed by him.
On the other hand, I personally like what Baha'u'llah has done, I appreciate his scope of religious thought; yet his exegesis is lousy, and God has sent me with a specific name of Exegesis (Zand) in Persian to fix this, since he was from there.
So just like Isaiah 28:11 prophesied the Messiah comes speaking another language to his people before their Judgement (English is the most spoken language)...
We're here to warn there is a purge of reality coming soon from the God Most High (Deuteronomy 29:19-27), and thus as Isaiah 28:22 says careful of mocking this.
In my opinion.
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How did the unlearned disciples recognise Christ yet those who were experts in the Jewish scriptures failed?
Jesus said ‘the pure in heart shall see God’. So it is not human learning or knowledge or interpretation of this or that passage which will enable one to see the truth but purity of heart.
The Jewish priests got caught up in words and interpretations and failed to see their Messiah yet simple uneducated fishermen recognised His truth. So if we are pure in heart we shall be able to see Him anytime He appears. The greatest proof of a Manifestation of God is His Own Self, His Life and Teachings. Conflicting interpretations of the Bible has not led Christians to recognise Who Baha’u’llah is because they have judged Him by their own imperfect knowledge like the Jewish priests did when Jesus appeared.
Purity of heart not human learning is required to see the truth not rhetoric and theological hairsplitting over this or that word or passage. The high priests are an example of how their book learning availed them nothing and they rejected the Essence of Truth, the very Messiah they were calling on day and night to appear.
The sun is it’s own proof that light exists and is in no need of any other proof than it’s own self. But eyes that are closed do not see. The same Light that was in Jesus is in Baha’u’llah but to those who worship the lamp and not the Light they do not recognise the Light when it appears in a new Lamp because they worship the Lamp not the Light.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
As usual you take your quotes that show what you want them to say and ignore the verses that are contradictory.
Luke 24:39 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
This was after Jesus had supposedly come back to life. Call just a story. Call it BS. Call whatever you think you need to call it, but what the NT says and implies contradicts what Baha'is say is the real truth. Paul, John, Luke? They weren't the Messiah. They weren't the "manifestation". They could easily be mistaken, lying or whatever you want them to be doing. But Baha'is play a weird game of making all Scriptures turn miraculously into what the Baha'is say is the truth. All because your prophet and his son tell you what is the truth and Baha'is then have to find ways to make those things true. With the "flesh and bone" verses, Baha'is can't even believe that event took place, because Baha'is don't believe Jesus resurrected. So wouldn't that mean that Baha'is don't believe what the NT says is true? You're the logical one, doesn't that make sense? Just say the NT is BS... that it is myth. You might say that, but would Baha'u'llah or Abdul Baha' say that? No, they pretend they love the NT... just not all of it? Because it's not totally "authentic"? So wouldn't that mean that even Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha believe that some parts of the NT is made up fiction?
But which parts? The parts that treat Satan and demons as if they are real? The parts that have people, including Jesus, coming back to life? How about Jesus walking on water or turning water into wine? Totally unscientific I would think, so do Baha'is regard those verses as untrue and totally made up? And by the time Baha'is rip apart the truth from the fiction, what is left of the NT?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So then what good are Scriptures if they lead people to the wrong conclusions? So, again, are Paul, Luke and John wrong in the things they are saying? And what rebellion and what man of lawlessness is it that Baha'is believe happened prior to Baha'u'llah coming?
And about this "lamp" analogy. Have you seen the same "light" in Baha'u'llah that was in Jesus? No, it is the words, the Scriptures, the vague and misleading Scriptures that tell us about Jesus. And with the words of Baha'u'llah we have to decide if he truly is the promised return of Christ... along with Muhammad and The Bab.... and all the other people that Baha'is say are equal and one with Jesus. But, Jesus didn't make it sound like any other person or prophet was his equal. So, again, did the writers of the gospels tell the truth, or were they off on some things? Like I said in the previous post. Baha'is do believe that some of the stuff in the NT is not authentic, so somebody got something wrong.
Hmmm? What was it they forgot? They forgot to mention that all religions were one? They forgot to mention that Muhammad is equal to Jesus. They forgot to mention that there would be "dual" manifestations. So I guess you're right. We can't trust what the NT says, 'cause at best it only vaguely says any of those things. And it took Baha'u'llah and the Baha'is to "interpret" the NT for us and show us how three "Woes" become Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. How two witnesses become Muhammad and Ali. How dragons and beasts become the Umayyads and the Abbasids. How the "Lamb that was slain" becomes The Bab. And how the number or mark of the beast, the 666, becomes a date... the date of 661 but is really 666 because it is assumed Jesus was born 4 or 5 years before year zero.
So yes, absolutely, the Baha'i Faith is right about everything. No matter what Scriptures say. The people in all the other religions have to stop looking at their "lamp", realize they can't trust their own Scriptures and only listen to what the Baha'i Faith says is true... then all people and all religions can be one. Sounds so simple. I wonder why it is so hard for people to believe that?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Do you ever get tired of complaining about the Baha’is? I guess not.
Keep throwing the fuel but it will only make the fire grow longer and hotter and brighter.
I guess psychology and logic were not your best subjects in school.
Do you even care what the truth about God is?
Did it ever even occur to you that the Baha’i Faith might be right and Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah? At the end of the day that is all that matters, not what was written in the Bible. The Bible in no way disproves who Baha’u’llah was; rather, it proves who He was.
Thief in the Night by William Sears
What is in the NT are stories men wrote who had an agenda. I notice you did not respond to what I posted that was about what some liberal and mainline Christians believe... How very convenient.... It is much more fun to pick on the Baha’is.
These liberal and mainline Christians do not believe Jesus rose from the dead, so obviously they do not believe the same Jesus is going to come barrelling down from the sky on a cloud with trumpets and angels, so obviously they do not interpret the NT literally, not any more than the Baha'is do.
But it is a lot more fun to pick on the Baha'is than to see that some Christians do not believe any differently about Jesus than Baha'is do.
Alternative beliefs by some liberal & mainline Christians, secularists, etc.
Resurrection views- Religious tolerance - Paul
What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death:
Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1
They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.
Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.
In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:
"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3
http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not wonder.
Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
It is not that easy for most people to find the narrow gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. If they are irreligious they have become fatigued by the already established religions and thus just find it more annoying that a new one has popped up.
It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
For me personally I recognised Who Baha’u’llah was by reading His Words. The prophecies did greatly reinforce His Station to me but His Words were what had the most powerful influence over my mind, heart and soul. People who yearn for world peace and things like unity of religion and mankind will more readily accept Him whereas those who cling to tradition will likely not do so.
But no one is forced to accept Baha’u’llah. It is a personal choice.
As far as equality goes, Manifestations before Jesus said things like they were the ‘Supreme Personality of Godhead’ and Krishna in the Gita says that He is the beginning, the middle and the end of all things well before Jesus appeared and said He was the alpha and omega. So did Jesus borrow from the Gita? It is because They are all Suns of Truth They can all make the same claims and all be right.
Baha’u’llah explained that if the physical sun said ‘I am the only sun ‘ it would be true and correct. And if it said ‘I am the sun of Monday or Tuesday’ then it would be correct also because with regards to time the sun appears to be a new sun each day and is known by a different name but in reality it is the same one sun.
There is no difference between Krishna, Christ, Moses or Baha’u’llah except Their outward names, appearances and personalities and the Message they brought. The inner Light is all from the same Source, the same God.
People who cling to outward forms instead of following the inner Light will of course fail to recognise a new Manifestation. But those who cling to the inner spiritual Beauty of These Great Beings will all eventually recognise the truth.
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Not sure how people dare to be honest:
The Tanakh ideologies are continued in exact alignment in the Synoptic Gospels; John, Paul, and Simon overwrite Yeshua with jesus, Baha'u'llah cites jesus, and doesn't align with the Tanakh or Quran.
This can all be proven exegetically with study; the idea the Baha'i don't study the word's of God Messengers is shown.
In my opinion.
Not sure how people dare to be honest:
The Tanakh ideologies are continued in exact alignment in the Synoptic Gospels; John, Paul, and Simon overwrite Yeshua with jesus, Baha'u'llah cites jesus, and doesn't align with the Tanakh or Quran.
This can all be proven exegetically with study; the idea the Baha'i don't study the word's of God Messengers is shown.
In my opinion.
Baha’u’llah upholds the truth of all the Holy Books only not the conflicting interpretations.
Prove it... I don't mind debating each Holy Book, within the contexts each presents, and in alignment with their own precepts.
In my opinion.
Prove it... I don't mind debating each Holy Book, within the contexts each presents, and in alignment with their own precepts.
In my opinion.
For me I’m already in full agreement with the Holy Books of all the major Faiths.
You're allowed to follow what you want; yet Baha'u'llah is wrong as a fulfilment of prophecy, and unless you can show otherwise, we can show where in texts he is leading people the wrong way.
In my opinion.
That's why it's called faith. But it's not empty wishful thinking. You see, we can't leave God out of this question. Jesus said that no one would understand anything in connection with the son of God unless it is granted by the Father. (John 6:44; John 6:65) That means that our understanding of the scriptures is not dependent on what we personally believe. As is demonstrated on these boards, conviction is very strong in some people. Often they are what I call "lone rangers" who have either broken away from a former religious system or have decided that they can read the scriptures and "know" what they mean through some special connection to God.
Does God leave us in the dark then? Is there no way to determine what is truth? Jesus has already told us that God is the one who reveals his truth to whomever he chooses. How does God determine who is worthy of such knowledge? He is looking for those who want to find the form of worship that suits God, rather than 'shopping' for a religion that just suits themselves.
When Jesus gave instructions to his disciples in response to a question that was too often asked, this is how he responded....
"1 In that hour the disciples came near to Jesus and said: “Who really is greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens?” 2 So calling a young child to him, he stood him in their midst 3 and said: “Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens. 4 Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one who is the greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens; 5 and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me also. 6 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.
7 “Woe to the world because of the stumbling blocks! Of course, it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes! " (Matthew 18:1-6)
Those who are true disciples of Jesus Christ, have a childlike teachable quality.....they are spiritually hungry and have an open heart and mind when it comes to their search for the truth. They have no pre-conceived ideas about God, but are humbly open to the operation of God's spirit. I have seen so many people who have reached a point in their lives where they feel very jaded and unsatisfied with what their churches teach and what they practice. When these ones respond to the "good news of the kingdom" and begin to study the Bible for themselves, it's like watching the same kind of scales fall from their eyes as happened to the apostle Paul. (Acts 9:17-19)
This was my own personal experience as well......the Bible spoke to me with such power that I became hungry for what it had to teach. Every question I had, was answered straight from God's word reinforcing the truth of Hebrews 4:12-13.....
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."
God knows the heart, but often we do not even know what is in our own heart....so we can easily fool ourselves. How do we know? The answer is...we don't. But God does.
To me the Bible is the Word of God and it always keeps its promises. I think that people have been misled by clergy and ministers into continuing to ‘delay ‘ Christ’s second coming. And that as long as people have itchy ears and get hooked by smooth talkers they will never see that Jesus has already appeared.
Think about it. With around 40,000 sects of Christianity, divided amongst itself against God’s wishes to remain united who do you think God is going to raise up? The Catholics, JW or Adventist’s who all say each other is wrong. Where is love? It seems all these sects are more concerned about being politically correct than loving one another.
I believe Jesus returned but the spirit of love for Jesus had so disintegrated into sects and wars and hostility towards one another that they never knew Him when He came.
If you cannot be loving towards each other and cannot be in perfect unity then you’re no way going to recognise Jesus when He returned because love for each other had been replaced by disunity and sectarianism. I believe under these circumstances God changed Christians for another people who weren’t busy fighting and arguing over doctrines and were more willing to accept Him with love than be immersed in squabbling and sectarianism.
Christians I sadly believe missed the boat because they were too busy fighting amongst themselves to notice Christ’s return. You were commanded to ‘ watch and pray’ but were busy in your theological disputes so you didn’t watch. He came like a Thief in the night and others saw His Coming while Christians still were arguing amongst themselves.
I believe that Christians have no one but themselves to blame for missing Christ’s return because they turn to clergy and ministers and elders forgetting that it was the religious priests in Christ’s time who had Him crucified.
There are specific prophecy fulfilments to happen, we realize Baha'i don't care about if previous revelation is consistent, so they're unaware of this, and think the second coming could happen without certain prior events first...
Yet Israel had to come back in the land first for Armageddon to take place, therefore Baha'u'llah was in the wrong time frame entirely.
In my opinion.