What will happen if US/British/Nato forces lose in Afghanistan?

[Alceste]

Different scenario altogether

Did you not just say the enemy is Qutbism (Egypt) and Wahhabism (Saudi Arabia)?

 

[England my lionheart]

Egypt isn't ruled by the Qutb sect and is supposed to be secular,and Saudi withdrew its support of the Taleban a while ago,they are even too harsh for a Wahhabi.

 

[England my lionheart]

The taliban will continue to exist as long as their raison d'etre continues -- the presence of foreign troops in Afghanistan. The Taliban is generated by the occupation. We created them, and our presence maintains them.
As for Al-qaida, they can train anywhere, and the Afghanis would just as soon be rid of them as they would the Taliban and the Coalition occupiers. They just want to be left alone.

Like the Taliban, Al qaida exists to counter US occupation. Go away, and the whole thing will eventually dissolve or find some other enemy to oppose.

So if we leave the Taleban will just wander off back to the hills and the Opium fields,do you really believe that

 

[Valjean]

Absolutely. Our absence will remove their raison d'etre.

I'm sure many, who have acquired a taste for adventure, will find will find other mischief to be up to. The Arab world has tens of thousands of unemployed, disaffected youth seeking a place and purpose in life, and a long history of conflict -- internal and external. But if we don't impinge ourselves on their lives they won't bother themselves with ours.

 

[Troublemane]

Ya really, it does seem the only thing weve done is give them a reason to stop killing each other for a little while, to fight us. At least in Iraq I can see the strategic value, because of the oil and keeping the Chinese from snapping that up too. But afghanistan, seems only to be strategic due to being next to iran. Are we really just trying to hold onto afghanistan to keep pressure on Iran? and if so, how much is that really worth to us?

 

[kai]

The taliban will continue to exist as long as their raison d'etre continues -- the presence of foreign troops in Afghanistan. The Taliban is generated by the occupation. We created them, and our presence maintains them.

why do you say we created them? they originated in Pakistan. there raison d'etre is there own form of Islam. they want to live like the prophet and Jihad is their right.
Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for Al-qaida, they can train anywhere, and the Afghanis would just as soon be rid of them as they would the Taliban and the Coalition occupiers. They just want to be left alone. Alqueda cannot train anywhere they need a cooperative regime to allow them to train or train in secret. i agree the Afghans would like to see the back of Taliban and ISAF.

Like the Taliban, Al qaida exists to counter US occupation. Go away, and the whole thing will eventually dissolve or find some other enemy to oppose.

where did you get that idea? you forgot the aims of banishing of all foreign interests in "Islamic lands" and the destruction of Israel. and the "global Salafi jihad"

Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kai]

Absolutely. Our absence will remove their raison d'etre.

I'm sure many, who have acquired a taste for adventure, will find will find other mischief to be up to. The Arab world has tens of thousands of unemployed, disaffected youth seeking a place and purpose in life, and a long history of conflict -- internal and external. But if we don't impinge ourselves on their lives they won't bother themselves with ours.

then why did the Taliban exist before we even got there if their reason for existence is our being there? why didnt they wander off back to the hills before we got there? I am not sure where you get your idea for the "raison d'etre" of the Taiban its very odd.

 

[Alceste]

Ya really, it does seem the only thing weve done is give them a reason to stop killing each other for a little while, to fight us. At least in Iraq I can see the strategic value, because of the oil and keeping the Chinese from snapping that up too. But afghanistan, seems only to be strategic due to being next to iran. Are we really just trying to hold onto afghanistan to keep pressure on Iran? and if so, how much is that really worth to us?

You're trying to hold Afghanistan to avoid embarrassment. The US can not bear to admit - what with a military budget greater than their 17 closest rivals combined - that they've been beaten by a handful of goat herders with hand-me-down Kalashnikovs.

 

[Alceste]

then why did the Taliban exist before we even got there if their reason for existence is our being there? why didnt they wander off back to the hills before we got there? I am not sure where you get your idea for the "raison d'etre" of the Taiban its very odd.

Are you saying that prior to 9-11 the West did not interfere with Middle Eastern politics?

No, you couldn't be... that would be too much...

 

[kai]

Are you saying that prior to 9-11 the West did not interfere with Middle Eastern politics?

No, you couldn't be... that would be too much...

your right i am not, but why do you ask?

 

[Alceste]

your right i am not, but why do you ask?

Because that's how it sounds. I agree with Seyorni that if we got out (and I mean out of the whole business of interfering with M.E. politics, including the military funding of Israel), al Qaeda would eventually wither and die for want of purpose.

 

[kai]

Because that's how it sounds. I agree with Seyorni that if we got out (and I mean out of the whole business of interfering with M.E. politics, including the military funding of Israel), al Qaeda would eventually wither and die for want of purpose.

yes i will agree if we do not have any dealings with Alqueda designated countries and if eventually Israel is destroyed and they overthrow all Muslim governments and a caliphate created and a global Jihad ensued that gave Allah back the his world,that would indeed be mission accomplished and they could kick back and enjoy the view.

 

[Alceste]

yes i will agree if we do not have any dealings with Alqueda designated countries and if eventually Israel is destroyed and they overthrow all Muslim governments and a caliphate created and a global Jihad ensued that gave Allah back the his world,that would indeed be mission accomplished and they could kick back and enjoy the view.

Right, because Israel can't defend itself, what with all those nuclear bombs.

 

[kai]

Right, because Israel can't defend itself, what with all those nuclear bombs.

If the nuclear option protects them from destruction ,then until they are destroyed a raison d'etre for the existance of Alqueda will remain.

In fact Al-Qaeda's raison d'etre, its "reason for existence," is that its a self-anointed "Army of Allah against all Jews and Crusaders"

 

[Alceste]

If the nuclear option protects them from destruction ,then until they are destroyed a raison d'etre for the existance of Alqueda will remain.

In fact Al-Qaeda's raison d'etre, its "reason for existence," is that its a self-anointed "Army of Allah against all Jews and Crusaders"

Merci pour le traduction, mais vraiement ca n'etait pas necessaire.

IMO, it is up to Muslims to defeat al Qaeda, not us.

 

[kai]

Merci pour le traduction, mais vraiement ca n'etait pas necessaire.

IMO, it is up to Muslims to defeat al Qaeda, not us.

i wish it was that simple, Alqueda plays on the dreams of Muslims of the "ummah" and the Caliphate, its desires are not confined to the Muslim world but to the whole world . its the whole world that it wants the Caliphate to rule not just the Muslim world as we know it. Its fight is with the "jews and crusaders" as well as the Muslim nations who's leaders are in Alquedas view Islamically corrupt and its willing to kill Muslims and Kafir alike to achieve its aims,so its not just muslims involved is it.

 

[Alceste]

i wish it was that simple, Alqueda plays on the dreams of Muslims of the "ummah" and the Caliphate, its desires are not confined to the Muslim world but to the whole world . its the whole world that it wants the Caliphate to rule not just the Muslim world as we know it. Its fight is with the "jews and crusaders" as well as the Muslim nations who's leaders are in Alquedas view Islamically corrupt and its willing to kill Muslims and Kafir alike to achieve its aims,so its not just muslims involved is it.

I know what they want, but who cares? The BNP wants foreigners out of England. James Dobson wants a fundamentalist theocracy in the US. Microsoft wants a global monopoly on operating systems.

Sinister, feverish dreams of world domination and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee where I live.

The question is, CAN they attain a Caliphate to rule the entire world? No, very obviously not. So what the **** are we doing over there?

 

[kai]

I know what they want, but who cares? The BNP wants foreigners out of England. James Dobson wants a fundamentalist theocracy in the US. China wants to vanquish the culture and religion of Tibet. Sinister dreams of world domination and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee where I live.

The question is, CAN they attain a Caliphate to rule the entire world? No, Ask yourself why not ?very obviously not. So what the **** are we doing over there?

i would be interested in your answer because I dont think you really get it. remember this whole last few posts between us was about their reason for existence. their Caliphate is the reason for existence.

 

[Alceste]

i would be interested in your answer because I dont think you really get it. remember this whole last few posts between us was about their reason for existence. their Caliphate is the reason for existence.

But the dissatisfaction and animosity stirred up by Western aggression and hegemony is their most potent and successful recruiting tool.

Why can't they achieve their goals? Because there are not enough of them. If the West stops interfering in the affairs of ostensibly sovereign Muslim states their numbers will decline.

 

[kai]

But the dissatisfaction and animosity stirred up by Western aggression and hegemony is their most potent and successful recruiting tool.
That could have came from an Alqueda recruiting slogan. There most succesful recruiting tool is the fact that they proclaim to be Islamic and are in a jihad.
Why can't they achieve their goals? Because there are not enough of them. If the West stops interfering in the affairs of ostensibly sovereign Muslim states their numbers will decline.

Its not the number of Alqueda operatives its the spread of the ideology. they have the same ideology as the Taliban and they cant operate and grow without a sympathetic sponsor.

Most Muslim governments are terrified of fundamentalism its a stark choice represented to Muslims, modernisation which brings with it western ideas and things, or a fundamentalist version of Islam. What makes their numbers increase is that they present themselves as being in a struggle for the survival and eventual success of Islam and the Caliphate and Sharia, they portray the west as evil. Alqueda openly declare themselves to being in a holy war that's what brings in new recruits.

The Taliban ruled in Afghanistan and they are a big problem in Pakistan and the Taliban shelter and agree with Alqueda, they are allies.you yourself have mentioned other countries that have Alqueda or Alqueda influenced groups operating in them. the core group of Aqueda may indeed be small but the idea is huge.