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what !!! Where Jesus said so? (GOD)

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by TashaN, Sep 2, 2005.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    regarding to what my friend Michel claim, he is saying that Jesus was fully God and fully man.

    That means he is the same as God >>>>> FULL GOD

    God "the father" = God "the son"

    Where did he made himself equal to his father in the bible ??? Show me please.

    If he is like his father ( God ) then why he dosn't have the same power the other God
    "the father" has?

    if he is a fully God then do you think a God will ask for a help from another God ( in the crucifiction ) ??? then how can you define the meaning of God if he is useless that he can't help himself.

    let's see ...

    In John 10:30we find that Jesus says "I and my Father are one." This verse, according to Christians, shows clearly that God and Jesus Christ are the same. Also we read in John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Here Jesus clearly states that there is distinction between him and God. In other words that Jesus himself has a God. AlsoMatthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" HereJesus Christ cries in loud voice calling his God.

    These are two different and opposite ways Jesus relates himself to God. The first one that he and God are one, and the second is that he refers to a higher authority than him which is his God. Now assuming that both are correct statements then we have a contradiction. If, for example, Jesus Christ was God himself as in John 10:30 then it would be more appropriate for him to say "...and to myself, and your God." in John 20:17, or "Myself, Myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" in Matthew 27:46. If, on the other hand, one of them is wrong and the other is correct then we have to discard the one that we believe to be incorrect. Since God does not make mistakes then we no longer believe that the Bible is the word of God (because we believe that there is a contradiction God's words).

    A third possibility is that we have to look at how we can interpret the words of Jesus in those verses. As far as John 20:17 and Matthew 27:46 it is very clear that Jesus has a God whom he prays to and Whom has a higher authority than him. We can back this up with other verses from the bible that say, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30). Also Jesus says, "...for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). If Jesus and God were the same then he would not have said what he has said in the above verses. Now, the only verse that can be interpreted is John 10:30. It is the only one that does not render itself clear. The only way John 10:30 could be interpreted such that it does not contradict all the other verses is by saying that Jesus meant that he and God have something in common.

    To find out what the common grounds are, we have to look at the context which this verse is in:

    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

    As can be seen from John 10:28 and John 10:29 that Jesus is telling the Jews that he and God share something in common, and that is; that no one can pluck the faithful from either of their hands. This is what is common between Jesus and God in this case, and not that Jesus is himself is God, or that they are exactly the same.

    Let us go on to see what Jesus says in John 10:

    John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

    John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

    John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

    John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

    John 10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan

    In John 10:31 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30). And in John 10:33 they accuse him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he should not hesitate to clarify the matter at this point. Jesus at this point says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" What he is trying to say that if you call "I and my Father are one" blasphemy then you should call what is written in your law "Ye are gods" blasphemy also. The reasoning here is that "Ye are gods" does not mean that you, the Jews, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same with "I and my Father are one." It does not mean that I am God or that we are the same literally. It is just an expression. The same goes for calling himself "the Son of God." This statement should not be taken literally either.

    The Holy Quran says, "...Nothing whatsoever (is there) like the like of Him, and He (alone) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing" (Ch 42: Vr 11). Nothing at all is like God, not Moses, not Jesus, not Muhammad, and certainly nothing of His creation.
     
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  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    He is correct.

    That is correct.

    Yup.

    Philippians 2:6 = WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:

    John 10:18 = I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN.

    He didn't -- Jesus is a monotheist.

    Good question.

    Interpret this:

    1 Timothy 3:16 = AND WITHOUT CONTROVERSY GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, SEEN OF ANGELS, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD, RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY.

    How clear is that?
     
  3. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Then how can you explain these two verses which have 2 eviedence:

    1- That he is asking us to worship his God and our God.
    2- That he didn't neglect the OT.
    3- There is only one God not three (If there is any other verse which can contradict with this so which one is the right one?)

    He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)

    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mark 10:18)


    “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

    this verse contradict with your assuming that God "the father"= God "the son"
    are you saying 1=1 and 1=0 are the same? how comes that God is greater than the other God unless i have misunderstanding about the definition of a GOD.

    Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. (John 17: 3)

    * Here he decleared God as only true God >> that means other Gods are false.
    He said that God sent him >> that means ( in english ) he is a Messenger from God.

    For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God. Peter said: “God raised up his servant...” (Acts 3:26). The title servant refers to Jesus. This is clear from a previous passage where Peter declared: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13).

    Peter must have known that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob never spoke of a Triune God. They always spoke of God as the only God. Here, as in Matthew 12:18, Jesus is the servant of God. Matthew tells us that Jesus was the same servant of God spoken of in Isaiah 42:1. So, according to Matthew and Peter, Jesus is not God, but God’s servant. The Old Testament repeatedly says that God is alone (e.g. Isaiah 45:5).

    All of the disciples of Jesus held this view. In Acts 4:24 we are told that the believers prayed to God saying: “...they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’” It is clear that the one they were praying to was not Jesus, because, two verses later, they referred to Jesus as “...your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.” (Acts 4:27).

    If Jesus was God, his disciples should have said this clearly. Instead, they kept preaching that Jesus was God’s Christ. We are told in Acts: “Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts 5:42).

    The Greek word “Christ” is a human title. It means “Anointed.” If Jesus was God, why would the disciples continually refer to him with human titles like servant and Christ of God, and consistently use the title God for the one who raised Jesus? Did they fear men? No! They boldly preached the truth fearing neither imprisonment nor death. When they faced opposition from the authorities, Peter declared: “We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus...” (Acts 5:29-30).

    Were they lacking the Holy Spirit? No! They were supported by the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:3, 4:8, and 5:32). They were simply teaching what they had learnt from Jesus — that Jesus was not God but, rather, God’s servant and Christ.
    The Quran confirms that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ), and that he was God’s servant (see the Holy Quran 3:45 and 19:30).


    Does salvation depend on this commandment? Yes, says the Bible! Jesus made this clear when another man approached Jesus to learn from him (see Mark 10:17-29). The man fell on his knees and said to Jesus: “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus replied: “Why do you call me good? No one is good — except God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18).
    By so saying, Jesus made a clear distinction between himself and God. Then he proceeded with the answer to the man’s question about how to get salvation. Jesus told him: “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17, also see Mark 10:19).

    Remember that the most important of all the commandments, according to Jesus, is to know God as the only God. Jesus further emphasized this in the Gospel According to John. In John 17:1, Jesus lifted his eyes to heaven and prayed, addressing God as Father. Then in verse three, he said to God as follows: “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3).

    This proves beyond doubt that if people want to get eternal life they must know that the One, whom Jesus was praying to, is the only true God, and they must know that Jesus was sent by the true God. Some say that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. But Jesus said that the Father alone is the only true God. True followers of Jesus will follow him in this too. Jesus had said that his true followers are those who hold to his teachings. He said: “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.” (John 8:31). His teaching is that people must continue to keep the commandments, especially the first commandment which emphasizes that God is alone, and that God should be loved with all our hearts and all our strengths.



    Peace ... :)
     
  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    No He wasn't. YOUR God is the primary deity of the Quraysh tribe. MY God is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

    That is true. IMHO, He is on every page of the OT.


    No verses of Scripture contradict each other. In order for two verses to literally contradict each other, they would have to "prove" each other wrong.

    For example, is a Zebra white with black stripes; or black with white stripes?

    Take a car that is say, all black, except for a white hood, roof, and trunk. A person seeing that car go past them might report it as a black car, whereas a helicopter pilot might report it as a white car. Both would be correct, despite the seeming contradiction.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    The truth;

    The truth;

    "Philippians 2:6 = WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:"

    Jesus Christ was God from eternity (John 1:1-3), the Creator of all things and also he was not fearful of losing His deity when He exchanged the outward form of God for the outward form of man; that is, He did not have to cling to His deity as a robber would his plunder. He could not cease being God. The word for robbery is used only this one time in the New Testament.


    "John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
    Note the tremendous dimensions of this claim. Jesus would not be put to death by the Jews, or the Romans, or even by Satan. He refused twelve legions of angels to save Him (Matthew 26:53), on the cross. After He had finished all the sufferings He must endure for our sins, deliberately and of His own volition, He dismissed His spirit (Luke 23:46) from His body. No ordinary man could ever do this.
    Jesus was raised from the dead, not by some miracle worker, or by an angel, or even by His Father, but by His own power.

    3- There is only one God not three (If there is any other verse which can contradict with this so which one is the right one?)
    This is not a reference to three Gods, it is a reference to the three 'aspects' or characters of God (as in the belief of the trinity):)
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    These verses show the depth perception that Jesus had. He was a master at logic and communications.

    He had just been approached by an individual that called Him, "Good Master", followed by a question about salvation. Jesus answers by first getting him to focus on God as "good". Thus:
    • Good = God only
    • Jesus = Good Master
    • thus Jesus = God only Master
    • or Jesus = God
    "The Father is greater than I" statement means just that. In Jesus current incarnated state, His Father would be, because, for one thing, Jesus cannot be in two places at the same time, He has suspended His attribute of omnipresence. He also suspended His omniscience, as He states that only His Father knows when the Second Coming will be.
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    It is imperative the the disciples keep the focus of the Gospel on Jesus, and Jesus alone.

    Acts 4:12 = NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: FOR THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.

    Had they traveled around claiming Jesus = God, then some would be calling on the name of Jehovah for salvation, and some would be calling on Jesus, creating confusion.

    As a matter of fact, this was already happening:

    1 Corinthians 3:4 = FOR WHILE ONE SAITH, I AM OF PAUL; AND ANOTHER, I AM OF APOLLOS; ARE YE NOT CARNAL?

    So with this in mind, they separated "Jesus" from "God", yet were able to maintain the existence of the Godhead, which would be taught in their epistles.
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Paul makes it clear that this is not the case in Romans 7:10 ---

    AND THE COMMANDMENT WHICH WAS ORDAINED TO LIFE, I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH.

    Jesus' point in claiming that one should follow the 10 Commandments, is that one cannot follow the 10 Commandments.
     
  9. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    My God is not the one you claim ( which i don't know ) :biglaugh:

    But my God is the creater of you, me and the whole universe.
    The one who was worshipped by Abraham, Moses, (my lovely prophet who will come again Jesus Christ) and absloutly the last prophet Mohamed "peace be upon them all" as prophets for the only God, our God ... Allah.
     
  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    What are you saying ??? :confused:

    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?( don't call me God ) there is none good but one,( Me ) that is, God ( Me) (Mark 10:18)

    Is that really what you mean? :( I'm really confused now.


    nonsense :sarcastic

    the is my first time i heard such a thing about suspending theory !!!

    that means he lost his power ??? ahaaaaaaaa i got now

    so you mean Jesus as a fully God can't hold his power because he made himself a human being and when he is a human being he can't use his power and he can't make himself alive from the tomb because he suspended his power and also a fully God don't know when he will come again right? is this make any sense to you?
     
  11. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    please to avoid the misunderstanding i wanna know:

    1- Jesus is God "the father" himself in human form?
    2- Jesus is the son of God and he is totally another God not the same as God "the father"?
    3- Jesus was a man then suddnly he became a God and vise versa?


    You mean the power he suspend according to "AV 1611" ??
    but how can you explain that verse when he told them that his miracle is like Jonah because Jonah was alive so Jesus must be so as i explained in another thread.

    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19512&page=2 ( post 73 )


    So they weren't real 3 fully Gods and Jesus is not fully God according to you because if he is so we can simply say that he is God isn't it?
     
  12. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Why they were afraid of confusion if he was a fully God"Jesus" = "the father" so does it matter?

    now when you call your God asking for help will you say OOh my God " the father " or you mean OOh My God ( Jesus Christ ) ??? so the confusuin happened isn't it?

    before they were calling for God "the father" and now they are saying "Jesus Christ".



    1 Corinthians 3:4 = FOR WHILE ONE SAITH, I AM OF PAUL; AND ANOTHER, I AM OF APOLLOS; ARE YE NOT CARNAL?

    So with this in mind, they separated "Jesus" from "God", yet were able to maintain the existence of the Godhead, which would be taught in their epistles.[/QUOTE]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'You shall have no other gods before Me.' [/font]( God said so to Moses before Jesus Christ was born ) then they claim there is another God ( Jesus ) and you are asking saying:
    is that one cannot follow the 10 Commandments? and now everybody is worshiping Christ before God "the father".​
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    YOUR god is Allah, the moon god. That's the primary deity of the tribe that Mohamed came from, and that's why the symbol of Islam is a crescent moon.
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    The truth,

    I have found an article that you will hopefully read, in order to understand the Trinity;

    http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/trinity_brief.htm

    A Brief Explanation of the Trinity

    Please see the website for the explanation - and the understanding of the confusion in ideas between Islam and Christianity.​
    I hope you will forgive me if I say that this is my final attempt to help you understand; I have answered your questions as best as I can, on two different threads, and either you do not understand, or you do not wish to; I hope it is not the latter.:)
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well, I really don't want to paraphrase, since I'm King James Only, but, basically this is what He's saying:

    WHAT ARE YOU CALLING ME GOOD FOR? SINCE ONLY "GOD" IS GOOD, ARE YOU ADMITTING THAT "I" AM GOD?

    Philippians 2:7 = BUT MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.

    This 'made in the likeness of men' means that He suspended some of His natural attributes in order to assume a human body. He took on a brain, for instance, that couldn't hold omniscient data, and He took on flesh that isn't omnipotent (or the nails wouldn't have been able to pierce His skin).

    I hope this clarifies.
     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    The thread is about Jesus being a God in christians' eyes but not about Islam.

    If you have any questions about Islam or from where does the crescent came from so please start a new thread in it's proper forum and lead me to the link of it and i'll give you a comperhensive answer about it and i'll give you a free lesson in history about it because this symbol came before few years by an islamic country.

    please stick to our topic or just give up.

    Peace ... :)
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Fair enough, thank you.
     
  19. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    NONSENSE

    NONSENSE

    ASK ANYONE IN THE FORUM IF THIS REPLY MAKE ANY SENSE.


    PEACE ... :)
     
  20. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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