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what !!! Where Jesus said so? (GOD)

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by TashaN, Sep 2, 2005.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi Abram,

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  2. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I try to stick to the words of Jesus as well.
    There is no doubt that Jesus' words were the words God bade Him to speak.

    This cannot be said of Paul, however. Neither Jesus nor God gave any authority to Paul whatsoever. In fact Jesus gave authority to Peter and to James. He never met Paul, who was still Saul of Tarsus at that time.

    Paul says he had a vision. I have no reason to doubt Paul's word, but I have no reason to give him any interpretive authority either.

    Paul is good guidance 99% of the time, but there is no authority to interpret Jesus' words given to Paul.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  3. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    A very strong point that I was unaware of. So how should we handle what Paul wrote. Do we believe any of what he wrote then? Or try to figure out where he was misunderstood? I do see that your right God nor Jesus gave him authority, I don't like that fact either. Cause it's so strong
     
  4. BM5

    BM5 Member

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    "The Father is Greater Than I" is a reference to the Father as the First Cause, similiar to ourselves honoring our own father.
    The Father begot the Son and the Holy Ghost. I believe in One Almighty Triune God, the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost.
    The Person of the Son took flesh of the sinless Virgin Mary and raised it to Divinity.
    I don't believe that there is anything human left the absorbtion was so complete.
    There is no plurality of Gods in my faith, but one God with three Persons.
    "The Father and I are one"
     
  5. BM5

    BM5 Member

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    This debate over Saul of Tarsus goes on and on and on, I have made several post about what I think if anyone is interested but I would like to add that when I think of God the first word that comes to mine is " JUST ", God is just and renders justice, it is what we call just love.

    The next point is that God is perfect and cannot change.

    Re: Tarsus, here we have an unrepentant butcherer of Our Lords sheep making the claim about what we all know about, i.e. the alleged events on the road to Damascus, following this the eventual domination of the Christian Church.

    God gave the commandments to Moses and demanded justice to be dealt out if they were broken.

    Tarsus had the blood of innocent people on his head, it makes no sense that Our Lord as God would throw down His own law and do what Tarsus has claimed.

    Deliberate duplicity is the only name for it, so to answer your question, no, we should not believe what he wrote, and I for one do not and never will. But the choice is all ours to make.
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I think you can take 99% of Paul's words to the bank with faith in them.

    I think that we are subject to the law under God's justice. We are subject to repentance and firgiveness under God's grace. Both are infinite, why should we worry?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  7. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I look at it this way: God is Single, Alone and One. To be known and loved This Creator cannot reveal Himself in His full essence to us and expect us to survive. Therefore He communes with and reveals to a single Divine Manifestation what we need to know at this point in mankind's development in a way that we CAN understand, know and love Him.

    The SUN is too hot, radioactive, and intense for us to feel upon our flesh without distance and filtering. We can never feel the heat and radiation of the sun directly.
    At the distance of eight minutes travel (some 93 million miles) the rays of the sun after filtering by our atmosphere DO allow us to know the warmth and light of the sun. We can tolerate the reflection of the sun's light in a mirror.

    God is the SUN, the rays of the sun after being safely filtered are the Holy SPirit, and the mirror in which we cfan safely gaxe upon the sun's glory is Jesus.

    Each seperate. None of them the Essence of God, but God - Single, Alone and ONE.

    Jesus was the closest thing to GOd which the people of Jesus' time could see without being blasted by the full Essence of God. He was not, however, God.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  8. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    I don't know how anyone could read through the book of John and not know Jesus claims.

    "I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am"
    -John 8:58
    In fact isn't the reason they killed him is because of this claim? To be God.
     
  9. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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  10. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I just got a case of the serious giggles when I scrolled down to this heading in bold.
    :biglaugh:
    Not sure why.
     
  11. john63

    john63 titmouse

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    I love Baptists.;) Right straight to the point with no mincing words. Preach on Brother!:clap
     
  12. searcher63

    searcher63 Member

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    AMEN BROTHER!!! what a FRUBALISCIOUS POST!!!! John 10:30 is probably the main scripture used to support the Trinity...yet as you rightly point out Jesus was saying ONE in the context of unity
    Great post!!!
     
  13. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu Holding All and None

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    Jesus preached unity in love, which means that we could say that Jesus is trying a very revolutionary idea about what it is to be of God. Love, compassion, these are the things of God to him. Also understanding that you yourself are just as terrible as any person that you call terrible yourself, especially. The woman from Cyro-Phoenicia (sp?) was the one to teach this, as I recall. And in response to a post a while ago, someone stating that prayer is how you talk to God, I disagree. Prayer has different definitions, as much as religion, faith and God do respectively. To many prayer is just meditating on the nature of God, not trying to talk to God, whatever gender God may be, etc.
     
  14. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three seperate persons that make up one deity, God. We had a sermon on this yesterday, and as soon as it is placed on our church website, I will post a link to it. It should clear things up.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    The Truth.

    O.K, so just one more time.......................But, this time, The Truth, try to read this not as a Muslim, but as someone who knows nothing of religion; try to understand it without continually contradicting it, and saying that it doesn't make sense..............Go on, give it a try............http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4222.asp
    Jesus Christ our Creator

    A Biblical Defence of the Trinity
    by Jonathan Sarfati
    The doctrine of the Trinity is difficult for some people to understand. But this is what God has revealed in Scripture about His own Being, so we should believe it.
    The doctrine of the Trinity states that in the unity of the Godhead there are three eternal and co-equal Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the same in essence but distinct in role—three Persons (or three centres of consciousness) and one Being (see diagram, below) The different senses of one-ness and three-ness mean that the doctrine is not self-contradictory. This is similar in principle to saying that the navy, army, and airforce are three distinct fighting entities, but are also one armed service. NB: this is not to suggest that the three persons are ‘parts’ of God. Indeed, each Person has the fullness of the Godhead (see Colossians 2:9). A better analogy is that space contains three dimensions, yet the dimensions are not ‘parts’—the concept of ‘space’ is meaningless without all three dimensions.
    Biblical derivation

    All things necessary for our faith and life are either expressly set down in Scripture or may be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture. Some Religions, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and groups known as ‘Oneness’, or ‘Jesus-only’ Pentecostals (not to be confused with mainstream Pentecostals who do believe in the Trinity), are fond of pointing out that the word ‘Trinity’ is not found in the Bible. But the doctrine can be logically proven from the following clear teachings of Scripture as follows:
    • [​IMG]There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:8). Note that the Hebrew word for ‘one’ is echad which means composite unity—it is used in Genesis 2:24 where the husband and wife become ‘one flesh’. The word for absolute unity is yachid which is never used of God in the Scripture.
    • The Father is called God (John 6:27, Ephesians 4:6).
    • The Son is called God (Hebrews 1:8. He is also called ‘I am’ in John 8:58 cf. Ex. 3:14—see below for more biblical proof). He has always existed (John 1:1–3, 8:56–58), but took on full human nature in addition to His divine nature at the Incarnation (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5–11).
    • The Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3–4), and is personal (Acts 13:2), not some impersonal force as the Jehovah’s Witness cult believes.
    • They are distinct, e.g. at the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16–17 all three were present and distinct. The Son is baptized, the Father speaks from Heaven, and the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, flies down and lands on the Son. See the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ Note that the word ‘name’ is singular, showing that all three Persons are one Being.
    The distinction in persons within the one God means that it is possible for Jesus to be the ‘one mediator between God and men’ (1 Timothy 2:5), and to be our ‘advocate with the Father’ (1 John 2:1) when we sin. An advocate is a defence lawyer, who pleads our case before a judge. This demonstrates a distinction between the persons.
    The distinction makes the Substitutionary Atonement possible. How else could Jesus be the One on whom the LORD has ‘laid ... the iniquity of us all’ (Isaiah 53:6)? The one laying and the one on whom our sins are laid must be distinct.
    Jesus said that His Father sent Him (John 14:24) and that the Spirit was sent by both the Father (John 14:26) and the Son (John 15:7). This also points to distinct centres of consciousness within the one God.
    The fact that Jesus prayed to God the Father (John 17:1) shows there was a distinction between Father and Son. Since Jesus was fully human (as well as fully divine), and humans should pray, it follows that it was proper for Jesus to pray in His humanity.
    Also, the deity of the Son, Jesus Christ, is further proved by the fact that He has attributes belonging uniquely to God, e.g.:
    • He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16–17).
    • He has the ability to forgive sins (Luke 7:47–50) and judge all people (John 5:27).
    • He sends forth the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).
    • He accepts worship (Hebrews 1:6, Matthew 14:33)
    • He is called ‘Lord’ (Romans 10:9) where ‘Lord’ (kurios) is a translation of the Old Testament Yahweh (= God) (Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32 which makes this clear)
    • And He is identified with the ‘Alpha and Omega’ and the equivalent ‘the first and the last’ (Revelation 1:8, 17–18, cf. Isaiah 44:6).
    • In the Old Testament, He is the Child who is called ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Everlasting Father’ (Hebrew is literally ‘Father of Eternity’, meaning ‘Author of Eternity’) (Isaiah 9:6, cf. 10:21) He would be born in Bethlehem, yet His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ (Micah 5:2)
    Some Objections to the Trinity Answered

    Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some cults have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.
    • Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.
    The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister—he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.
    • Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.
    ‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.
    • Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).
    • Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).
    This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.
     
  16. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    How wonderful, michel, that you posted something calling other religions cults. :(

    I completely agree with the diagram, but don't believe in the Trinity. How would you reconcile that?
     
  17. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Let's look at water to explain this. Water (H2O), can take on 3 forms, liquid, solid, and gas. Ice is all water, but all water is not ice. Ice is made of H2O, and so are clouds, but both are seperate of one another.

    Does this help you see?
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Actually, that's one of the classic heresies. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not merely different manifestations of the same God. They are three distinct persons, manifest as one God.
     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Aghhhhhhhhhhh sorry; didn't see that bit; I have removed it now.:eek:

    Did Enhanced Spirit's answer make sense ?

    Another analogy would be that I am a husband, a father, and yes, a son. Imagine the different personas I present to my wife, my sons, my parents..
     
  20. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    I was under he impression Paul (Saul) never met Jesus.

    Can we trust the vision he had?

    Could he not have been guided by satan in order to lead people astray?

    I thought that I read some of his qotes and he seemed to contradict himself whe he was explaining his vision to certain people.
     
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