What to do about hurtfulness of some beliefs?

[QuestioningMind]

If I could actually convince someone of what I myself am aware - that words are a nothing farted out into the ether, then it would probably be some of the best advice they could get, especially if they currently or consistently allow words to eat at them.

Believe me, as I have stated I KNOW that words can be harmful - hence the reason I hold onto their use in specific situations - because I know they are effective weapons. However, I also know that they are only effective if one is predisposed to find them effective. And I know this because they are not effective on me, and I understand why.

The pains are quite different, and there isn't really arguing otherwise. Physical pain is a completely automatic response by the body to alert of damage, and pain caused by words requires actual contemplation and understanding. I already made this point earlier by asking someone whether they would still feel "hurt" by words spoken against them, but in a language they didn't understand. This disqualifies emotional pain due to words from being involuntary and beyond a person's control. And again, I (at the very least) am proof that it is within a person's own control whether words are effective weapons against them or not.


Who are you to judge how severe my psychological torment was at the hands of the other kids during my schooling years? Who's "discounting the psychological pain that people experience from words" now? Give me a break.

So you're saying that I shouldn't try to describe to someone who is hurt by words the ways in which they can view the situations so that they are not hurt by those words? In other words - I should not attempt to extend my privilege to others? Can you tell me in what ways that relating this idea to others does "more harm than good?" Was that simply a specious statement, or do you have something with meat to carry those bones?

To my mind it is nothing at all like this. Again - a person suffering physical pain cannot choose to turn it off. I am living proof that a person facing attackers using only words can, in fact, ward them off as if wielding a shield. There is no shield from physical pain except drugs that turn off the nerves. Even then, the damage still exists, you just told the nerves to shut-up temporarily. In my case, a great many words that have been known to damage others simply cannot harm me. Yet a bowling ball hurled at the head of any man is going to leave its mark. The two realms are decidedly more different then you are trying to make them out to be.

The pains are quite different, and there isn't really arguing otherwise. Physical pain is a completely automatic response by the body to alert of damage, and pain caused by words requires actual contemplation and understanding. I already made this point earlier by asking someone whether they would still feel "hurt" by words spoken against them, but in a language they didn't understand. This disqualifies emotional pain due to words from being involuntary and beyond a person's control. And again, I (at the very least) am proof that it is within a person's own control whether words are effective weapons against them or not.


Yes, physical and psychological pain are quite different. One huge difference is that debilitating psychological pain can be FAR MORE difficult to endure than debilitating physical pain. Doctors can usually identify the source of physical pain with relative ease… identifying the source of psychological pain can take years. We have a myriad of options for easing a person’s physical pain that work for virtually everyone. Unfortunately we know far less about treating psychological pain.

And there’s also a huge difference between mild physical discomfort and debilitating physical pain. There’s also a huge difference between the psychological pain that someone who’s been fortunate enough to have been given the tools to deal with psychological pain suffers and the psychological that those who were not so fortunate suffers.


Again, you sound like someone who has only experienced mild discomfort lecturing someone with chronic pain about how easy it should be to just ignore the discomfort. What you are is proof that for people FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE TOOLS, it is within their own control how effected they are by words. Sadly, for those who were NOT given such tools during crucial stages of development they do NOT find it within their own control whether words effect them. For such unfortunate people such psychological pain IS involuntary and beyond their control and it can take years of intense therapy in order to learn such skills.

Who are you to judge how severe my psychological torment was at the hands of the other kids during my schooling years? Who's "discounting the psychological pain that people experience from words" now? Give me a break.

Who am I to judge how severe the psychological pain you endured during your schooling years? I’m someone who has read what you’ve written and from what you’ve written it’s OBVIOUS that you are someone who was fortunate enough to have had parents and family that helped you to develop the tools required to effectively deal with psychological pain. Anyone who wasn’t so fortunate would never say that words are a nothing farted out into the ether or a person suffering physical pain cannot choose to turn it off, as if people who suffer psychological pain somehow CHOOSE to suffer such pain and that it should be something that they can decide to just turn on and off like a light switch. If nothing else your suggestion that physical pain is somehow harder to deal with than psychological pain clearly demonstrates that your psychological pain wasn’t terribly severe during your childhood. The reality is that people who have suffered truly debilitating psychological pain will tell you that physical pain is EASY in comparison. In fact, it’s rather common for people suffering severe psychological pain to practice things like cutting, where they seek out intense physical pain, because that intense physical pain enables them to momentarily forget about their intense psychological pain, a pain that id FAR worse than any physical pain they might experience..

So you're saying that I shouldn't try to describe to someone who is hurt by words the ways in which they can view the situations so that they are not hurt by those words? In other words - I should not attempt to extend my privilege to others? Can you tell me in what ways that relating this idea to others does "more harm than good?" Was that simply a specious statement, or do you have something with meat to carry those bones?

Never said that you shouldn’t try and help people understand that they can develop tools to help them control their psychological pain, just that the words you use to do that matter… and the words you use can often do more harm than good. Saying things like: words are a nothing farted out into the ether or - a person suffering physical pain cannot choose to turn it off, suggesting that people who suffer psychological pain should be able o just choose to turn it off… as if EVERYONE was as fortunate as you were to have been given the tools to do so. And if they DON’T just ‘choose to turn it off’ then clearly they must WANT to wallow in their psychological pain.


Your entire message seems to be is I CAN DO IT, SO WHY CAN’T YOU? And for people who have had been hearing things like: It’s not like you’re feeling REAL pain, it’s all in your head! If you REALLY wanted to feel better you’d just CHOOSE to feel batter and since you don’t CHOOSE to feel better you must WANT to be miserable, your message can do far more harm than good.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Your entire message seems to be is I CAN DO IT, SO WHY CAN’T YOU? And for people who have had been hearing things like: It’s not like you’re feeling REAL pain, it’s all in your head! If you REALLY wanted to feel better you’d just CHOOSE to feel batter and since you don’t CHOOSE to feel better you must WANT to be miserable, your message can do far more harm than good.

This is exactly the scenario, however. That IS what I am saying. As stated, someone feeling physical pain cannot simply choose to ignore it. And part of the explanation to someone that they are able to ignore others' attempts to psychologically attack them MUST NECESSARILY COME WITH DESCRIPTIONS OF HOW THOSE ATTACKS CAN BE DEEMED MEANINGLESS OR IGNORED. It must come with descriptions of how you can choose to hand-wave away words as if they are nothing. If you're simply saying that it takes baby steps to get someone there from a stance of entrenched acceptance of emotional pain, then I get it, and I admit that this is likely true.

Also - I never once said that people are definitively "choosing to be miserable" if they insist on taking people's words to heart. Never once said that. Go ahead and look for it, but you won't find it, because I don't necessarily believe this. There may be certain cases where a sentiment like this is to be found, but otherwise I know that people are hurt by words - as I have ALSO STATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN. I even explained that I USE WORDS AS AN ATTACK METHOD AT TIMES BECAUSE I KNOW SO MANY PEOPLE ALLOW THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE. Do you understand this? That none of what I have said is me claiming that words do not hurt? I am claiming that words DO NOT NEED to hurt. And you have admitted as much by admitting that some are able to do as I do, and that it is a privilege.

In the end, if someone is hurt by me telling them that they don't have to accept pain caused by words, then tough. Freaking tough. They can be hurt all up one side of their brain and down the other for all I care. It is nothing but true statement, and if someone can't handle a truth as simple as that without getting bent out of shape then I might just come to the conclusion that they perhaps are one of those people who can't see themselves without the appraised misery they endure from others.

 

[Ayjaydee]

This is exactly the scenario, however. That IS what I am saying. As stated, someone feeling physical pain cannot simply choose to ignore it. And part of the explanation to someone that they are able to ignore others' attempts to psychologically attack them MUST NECESSARILY COME WITH DESCRIPTIONS OF HOW THOSE ATTACKS CAN BE DEEMED MEANINGLESS OR IGNORED. It must come with descriptions of how you can choose to hand-wave away words as if they are nothing. If you're simply saying that it takes baby steps to get someone there from a stance of entrenched acceptance of emotional pain, then I get it, and I admit that this is likely true.

Also - I never once said that people are definitively "choosing to be miserable" if they insist on taking people's words to heart. Never once said that. Go ahead and look for it, but you won't find it, because I don't necessarily believe this. There may be certain cases where a sentiment like this is to be found, but otherwise I know that people are hurt by words - as I have ALSO STATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN. I even explained that I USE WORDS AS AN ATTACK METHOD AT TIMES BECAUSE I KNOW SO MANY PEOPLE ALLOW THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE. Do you understand this? That none of what I have said is me claiming that words do not hurt? I am claiming that words DO NOT NEED to hurt. And you have admitted as much by admitting that some are able to do as I do, and that it is a privilege.

In the end, if someone is hurt by me telling them that they don't have to accept pain caused by words, then tough. Freaking tough. They can be hurt all up one side of their brain and down the other for all I care. It is nothing but true statement, and if someone can't handle a truth as simple as that without getting bent out of shape then I might just come to the conclusion that they perhaps are one of those people who can't see themselves without the appraised misery they endure from others.

Do you enjoy witnessing there pain?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I think I agree with the last poster about ALLOWING words to be effective.

I read the opening post, and not only did it wind up being an attack on religions, by coming to the assumption they are bigoted but it sounded like someone had basically fallen apart over what was probably very minor critique.

What I have found, as a syncretic attending church, is nonbelievers have a sort of mindset of "nobody will forgive my actions" and also "Christians are perfect". Both of these mentalities are unfair.
First, let's talk about the second one. The church is not intended as a club for perfect people. Nor is it really a place of worship (you're thinking of temples), but rather a gathering place for danaged and broken people, many of whom are embarrassed about theie sins. So, I hear all the time of people leaving the church because the member seemed so petty or mean or flawed. Yes, that's the point.
Which brings us to point number two, this idea that your sin is too great for God to forgive. This is your accuser talking, not the truth. In fact, that statement is false because it puts something beyond God's love and forgiveness. Shame is actually a worse sin than whatever you committed, as it sticks you with a mentality that somehow nobody could ever love you. Nothing is further from the truth!

Their, not there. Also, this is a classic example of what I'm talking about. The sort of mentality, that someone telling you the truth about things is either being mean to you, or treating you like you deserve acts as a filter, where you can't read their actual words.

 

[Jim]

Update on my thoughts about this: I don’t think that people are injured by other people’s beliefs. They can be injured by some ways that people talk about their beliefs. People who care about that and who are aware of their beliefs or views being used against some people can learn to help for example by reading their stories and spending time side-by-side with them in some kind of community service. There might be other ways of learning to help.

For anyone who is adversely affected by what other people say about them, and who feels confused or intimidated by people insinuating that the problem is all in them, it might help to read up on gaslighting. I’m seeing some skillful use of that in this thread, and in every discussion about toxic behavior in online discussions.

 

[Jim]

... your message can do far more harm than good.

- and arguing about it might be doing nothing but helping to perpetuate it and magnify its effects.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Do you enjoy witnessing there pain?

Enjoy? I don't think I enjoy it, no - and most often I don't get to see/witness their "pain" because the only time I do attack people with words like this is over the internet. Most encounters in the outside world within which I find someone's ideas to be in the wrong or of poorly constructed thought-materials, I just leave it be, because it isn't worth the drama that would unfold, in public, with that person. Plus, I get to meter my response, judge it, and discern the message I want to convey before doing so on the internet, and in "real life" I have to work on-the-fly, and therefore my words may not 100% represent my position, because too much emotion is allowed in off the cuff.

I do have to admit that I enjoy seeing people squirm in an argument. I enjoy reading what I know is their mind in the final death throes, desperately grasping at the few straws they have left. This I very much enjoy. Judge me all you want. You can take a guess as to how much I might actually care about your judgment on this point.

P.S. If you find yourself hurt by any of the words I have used above, please do let me know. Maybe then I can gauge whether or not I "enjoy it," and then I can more properly answer your question.

 

[Jim]

@Ayjaydee @QuestioningMind Do you have any more Ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them? Do you have any more ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people? Do you have any more ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?

 

[QuestioningMind]

- and arguing about it might be doing nothing but helping to perpetuate it and magnify its effects.

I can't imagine how educating people about the hurtfulness of words is going to somehow perpetuate the hurtfulness of words.

 

[halbhh]

What Ideas do you have for those people who feel hurt and injured? What ideas do you have for people who honestly and sincerely believe those things? What ideas do you have for other people who are concerned about those issues?

I answered longer (maybe well) before, but here's another thing, brief:

The Bible has nothing against gay people.

(I've read it cover to cover more than 1 time; there are a variety of sexual sins, but temperament itself -- mere inborn disposition -- is never a sin, of course. Being gay, or being gay in a relationship: not wrong according to the Bible, which doesn't even address this just like it doesn't address liking oranges better than apples.)

Those that are prejudiced against others, for race, or personality or gender, etc. -- anyone who is prejudiced is in danger from God, on the Day of Judgment, according to the Bible.

There are some variety of sexual sins spoken of in the bible, even just lusting after someone who isn't your spouse, even! But again, temperament isn't ever a sin, of course. There appear to be some sins you'd need to avoid doing if gay, just like for the rest of us who are not gay, but if you avoid those particular sins, that leaves about 1,000 or maybe 1 million things you can do as a gay person that are fine. So, this is the real picture.

The only people in profound serious, extreme danger on this whole topic/situation are those calling themselves Christians and hating (or having strong prejudice against) others. They are in extreme, very real danger, because they "have no excuse".

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I can't imagine how educating people about the hurtfulness of words is going to somehow perpetuate the hurtfulness of words.

As I mentioned before, you're enabling people to view words as some sort of actual attack. If you describe it as an attack, then you are framing it up in someone's mind as something necessarily damaging. As I have pointed out time and time again - it doesn't have to be. You have no way of arguing that words necessarily MUST harm a person. This is the main problem you have here. You going around, warning people of the danger of words is informing them of the view that they are potentially dangerous, or, as @Jim stated, perpetuating such a view, or entrenching someone further into such views. This is precisely why I refuse to give an inch on this topic. No one is ever going to hear me state that words are damaging. Admit that they can be? Sure. I'd be delusional if I didn't accept that people can be hurt by words, because I have seen it first hand, and experienced it myself. But I am not going to tell them that words are damaging outright - they will only ever hear the opposite from me - precisely so that I do not commit (what I believe is) the error that you are committing, all while you likely call it "empathy."

 

[QuestioningMind]

This is exactly the scenario, however. That IS what I am saying. As stated, someone feeling physical pain cannot simply choose to ignore it. And part of the explanation to someone that they are able to ignore others' attempts to psychologically attack them MUST NECESSARILY COME WITH DESCRIPTIONS OF HOW THOSE ATTACKS CAN BE DEEMED MEANINGLESS OR IGNORED. It must come with descriptions of how you can choose to hand-wave away words as if they are nothing. If you're simply saying that it takes baby steps to get someone there from a stance of entrenched acceptance of emotional pain, then I get it, and I admit that this is likely true.

Also - I never once said that people are definitively "choosing to be miserable" if they insist on taking people's words to heart. Never once said that. Go ahead and look for it, but you won't find it, because I don't necessarily believe this. There may be certain cases where a sentiment like this is to be found, but otherwise I know that people are hurt by words - as I have ALSO STATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN. I even explained that I USE WORDS AS AN ATTACK METHOD AT TIMES BECAUSE I KNOW SO MANY PEOPLE ALLOW THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE. Do you understand this? That none of what I have said is me claiming that words do not hurt? I am claiming that words DO NOT NEED to hurt. And you have admitted as much by admitting that some are able to do as I do, and that it is a privilege.

In the end, if someone is hurt by me telling them that they don't have to accept pain caused by words, then tough. Freaking tough. They can be hurt all up one side of their brain and down the other for all I care. It is nothing but true statement, and if someone can't handle a truth as simple as that without getting bent out of shape then I might just come to the conclusion that they perhaps are one of those people who can't see themselves without the appraised misery they endure from others.

Sadly it’s obvious that you care far less about actually helping people who suffer from severe psychological pain than you do about expressing what you consider to be the ‘truths’ about their condition. Simply telling someone psychological pain can be deemed meaningless and ignored is absolutely worthless unless you ALSO help provide them with the TOOLS they’ll need to do that. In fact, telling them that WITHOUT also offering the tools they’ll require is not just worthless, but it can be harmful. Above you claim that you understand that developing the tools to ‘ignore the pain’ is long and involved process… yet the words you use suggest otherwise. When you say SIMPLY ignore it, you are suggesting that it should be a SIMPLE thing to do, and for you who was fortunate enough to have developed the tools to do so at a young age it IS relatively simple, but for someone WITHOUT such tools, it’s going to be one the most difficult challenges they’ve ever faced.


And no, you never used the specific words they are ‘choosing to be miserable’ and I never claimed that you did. What I did say is when you say things like SIMPLY ignore it you’re implying that it should be SIMPLE to do… and if someone doesn’t do something that’s so SIMPLE to help themselves, then they MUST just WANT to be miserable. Again, you’ve provided absolutely ZERO in the way of providing them with tools to deal with the issue, you are in essence telling them to just grow up and stop being so weak and childish.


I’ve spent most of the past 20 years working with people who have suffered severe psychological trauma and probably one of the worst challenges they have to face is people like you, people who claim that all they want to do is tell them the ‘truth’ about how simple it is to deal with psychological pain, but ultimately don’t care if the method they use for conveying the message causes additional damage to the person you say you want to help. When you write: In the end, if someone is hurt by me telling them that they don't have to accept pain caused by words, then tough. Freaking tough. They can be hurt all up one side of their brain and down the other for all I care. It becomes distressingly clear that you don’t really care if you help people or not. It would be fitting if someday you were to experience the debilitating psychological pain that these people experience so that you’d have some clue that dealing with physical pain is EASY compared to dealing with psychological pain, but I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.


So please… stop trying to ‘help’. It may serve to make you feel superior, but it’s only hurting people who are already suffering in ways you can’t even imagine.

 

[osgart]

Value clashes are pretty common. So are clashes between those of no values and people of values. Some people hold up their values to have no values. Some people parade their lack of values for all to see. And if the whole world starts choosing less and less values, then we come upon dangerous times.

Some people have the fiercest false pride. Others are full of lust. Hate seems to be a way of life for some people.

For me I have grown numb to those who lack values. Senseless desires and ambitions. Rampant lack of values seems to be the norm. Pop culture is pretty junky and absurd.

So yeah people do a lot to hurt society, and strongly believe in what they are doing, and they prosper from it. Achieving degrees of lawlessness.

 

[QuestioningMind]

As I mentioned before, you're enabling people to view words as some sort of actual attack. If you describe it as an attack, then you are framing it up in someone's mind as something necessarily damaging. As I have pointed out time and time again - it doesn't have to be. You have no way of arguing that words necessarily MUST harm a person. This is the main problem you have here. You going around, warning people of the danger of words is informing them of the view that they are potentially dangerous, or, as @Jim stated, perpetuating such a view, or entrenching someone further into such views. This is precisely why I refuse to give an inch on this topic. No one is ever going to hear me state that words are damaging. Admit that they can be? Sure. I'd be delusional if I didn't accept that people can be hurt by words, because I have seen it first hand, and experienced it myself. But I am not going to tell them that words are damaging outright - they will only ever hear the opposite from me - precisely so that I do not commit (what I believe is) the error that you are committing, all while you likely call it "empathy."

Wow... I have to wonder if you're confusing me with someone else, because I haven't even come close to claiming that there are words that MUST harm a person. All I've stated is that for people not fortunate enough to have been given the tools to deal with psychological pain that certain words CAN and often DO have a harmful effect. And if you honestly think that me acknowledging that there are some people for whom this is true is somehow convincing such people that they have no control over how words effect them then that's just additional evidence that you've had little or no contact with people who suffer in such a manner. In fact such people need to have their experiences acknowledged and validated. They KNOW that MOST people can just basically ignore words. They've encountered people like you all of their lives who tell them that it's all in their head and that all they have to do is SIMPLY ignore it... as if that's ALL they need to hear in order to magically gain the tools that you have been fortunate to possess all of your life. What they need is for people to acknowledge that the pain they experience is just as real to them as any physical pain and that CURRENTLY, without having been taught the tools required to deal with such psychological pain, that they really DON'T have any control over it. What they need to be told is that with lots of work it's possible to gain the tools needed so that they DO have some level of control. For MOST people like this such validation of what they are experiencing is NECESSARY before they can hope to start learning the methods you and I use to deal with their pain.

No one is ever going to hear me state that words are damaging. Admit that they can be? Sure. I'd be delusional if I didn't accept that people can be hurt by words, because I have seen it first hand, and experienced it myself.

You're not making any sense here. If you admit that words CAN be damaging then you'd have to admit that for those people for whom words CAN be damaging that for them these words ARE damaging. Claiming that something CAN be damaging. but then stating that it never actually IS damaging is ridiculous.

 

[Ayjaydee]

Enjoy? I don't think I enjoy it, no - and most often I don't get to see/witness their "pain" because the only time I do attack people with words like this is over the internet. Most encounters in the outside world within which I find someone's ideas to be in the wrong or of poorly constructed thought-materials, I just leave it be, because it isn't worth the drama that would unfold, in public, with that person. Plus, I get to meter my 87 I'mresponse, judge it, and discern the message I want to convey before doing so on the internet, and in "real life" I have to work on-the-fly, and therefore my words may not 100% represent my position, because too much emotion is allowed in off the cuff.

I do have to admit that I enjoy seeing people squirm in an argument. I enjoy reading what I know is their mind in the final death throes, desperately grasping at the few straws they have left. This I very much enjoy. Judge me all you want. You can take a guess as to how much I might actually care about your judgment on this point.

P.S. If you find yourself hurt by any of the words I have used above, please do let me know. Maybe then I can gauge whether or not I "enjoy it," and then I can more properly answer your question.

Judge you? Lol

 

[Jim]

I answered longer (maybe well) before, but here's another thing ...

Thank you.

Does anyone ekse have any more Ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them? Does anyone ekse have any more ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people? Does anyone ekse have any more ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?

 

[Ayjaydee]

Thank you.

Does anyone ekse have any more Ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them? Does anyone ekse have any more ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people? Does anyone ekse have any more ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?

For a start, they could take a good look to see if any of the hurtful things have merit

 

[Jim]

When people are gaslighting about the adverse effects of words, I don’t think that arguing with them about it does anything to help reduce or counteract those effects. I think that all it does is invite them to continue, and give them more of a platform to stand on.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Because they're stubborn bigoted false believers.

 

[Jim]

Value clashes are pretty common. ...

I see a lot to agree with in what you said, but I don’t see how it answers any of my questions.

Do you have any more ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them? Do you have any more ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people? Do you have any more ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?