What to do about hurtfulness of some beliefs?

[Jim]

NOTE:I’m posting this in the Interfaith Discussion forum, which is not a debate forum. What I’m asking for here is helpful ideas for people on all sides of this issue.

I’ll start with an example of what I would not do. I would not quote anti-homosexuality clobber verses in the middle of a discussion about prejudice and discrimination against gays.

Sometimes people see and feel some beliefs as hurtful and injurious to them. What Ideas do you have for those people who feel hurt and injured? What ideas do you have for people who honestly and sincerely believe those things? What ideas do you have for other people who are concerned about those issues?

One of my ideas for people who honestly and sincerely believe things that people sometimes see and feel as hurtful and injurious to them, is to read some of their stories. Another is to spend some time with some of them side-by-side, in some kind of community service.

 

[Windwalker]

It's much easier to just sit in judgement of others, citing your holy book as justification for not bothering to try to see the world through another's perspective. To do so, would put you at risk of compassion, and that might mean you have to change some of the beliefs you've been attached to. (I don't mean you personally, but those who do this).

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Sometimes people see and feel some beliefs as hurtful and injurious to them. What Ideas do you have for those people who feel hurt and injured? What ideas do you have for people who honestly and sincerely believe those things? What ideas do you have for other people who are concerned about those issues?

My advice? Words are a trifle, a nothing. You don't have to let them affect you. You do not. Contend this all you want... it is true. I know because I do it. Words do not hurt me unless I allow them to. Period. And when they do hurt, I understand that I am to blame.

A punch to the face? You can't choose whether or not that causes you harm. You can't choose to turn off the nerves that are alerting your brain to the damage caused. Words however? WORDS? You can turn a deaf ear to anything you choose.

This isn't to say that one should turn a deaf ear to anything and everything they don't agree with. I am specifically referring here to words that are meant to be used as weapons of some form by the user. And yes, for all those wondering, this includes any words I use that are of a less than congenial nature (haha). You may wonder why I choose to use such words when I feel that others can or should simply ignore them. Well... there is secret information I have that makes my words particularly effective - and that is that I know that everyone else feels that words are of the utmost importance and grant them much undue power within their lives. And so you see? I can use this most powerful weapon, with full knowledge that it cannot be used against me in return. If that makes me vile, then so be it. I am vile.

 

[Maximus]

.....One of my ideas for people who honestly and sincerely believe things that people sometimes see and feel as hurtful and injurious to them, is to read some of their stories. Another is to spend some time with some of them side-by-side, in some kind of community service.

So what happens after listening to them, reading their stories, and spending time with them? Do I then just abandon my convictions, toss aside what I believe to be true and right just because someone might be offended? I will not participate in this "if it feels good then it is OK" culture. I think there are timeless truths, ones not subject to fads or the misguided views of others.

For example, I have heard the stories of many women who have had abortions. I will always have love and compassion for the women and have sympathy for them because of what they have been through. But I will also not waiver in my conviction that abortion is murder.

Now what?

 

[epronovost]

A punch to the face? You can't choose whether or not that causes you harm. You can't choose to turn off the nerves that are alerting your brain to the damage caused. Words however? WORDS? You can turn a deaf ear to anything you choose.

I find this sort of tripe dangerously naive and privileged. People have feelings and those feelings are important. We are a social species. Our social standing and relationships are an important part of our lives and wellbeing. Everybody can ignore some psychological abuse just like anybody can ignore some physical abuse, but at some point everybody has a breaking point. Words are powerful. Just like any other weapons they should wielded with some care and mindfullness.

 

[Quintessence]

Dispelling the idiotic notion that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" is a good start. The power of words is an order of magnitude greater than physical action for a storytelling species like humans. Those that do not acknowledge the power of words are either fools or abusers of its power themselves. Pardon the strong language here, but having run afoul of psychopaths who refuse to take responsibility for how their words deeply impact others makes me more than a little opinionated about this subject. And I see it far too often on the internet for comfort as well. The sooner we dispel the idiotic notion that words don't have an impact and that you, as a speaker, aren't responsible for the weight your words carry... the better.

In my own Code of Honor, there's a clause that specifically addresses the importance of speaking criticism carefully in part because of the weight of words. Criticism is necessary, but it is good to carefully weigh it before issuing it. And when issuing it, consider the weight of those words on the audience and how to best preserve peaceable dialogue while also offering criticism. It's very possible to do this, though more difficult through impersonal communications media like a web forum where vocal cues and body language are absent.

My mind is often drawn to a discussion group I participated in many years ago. It was a diverse crowd of folks there to discuss deep issues - there were Pagans, Evangelicals, Jews, Atheists... we were quite the collection. The Evangelical would straight up say to our Pagan faces that we were going to hell in his view. But he also made it clear that he still respected and appreciated us as people. That's the art of communication - you can convey disapproval while also still respecting the person. And if you can't do that, it is usually better to not open your mouth at all and leave the room.

 

[epronovost]

For example, I have heard the stories of many women who have had abortions. I will always have love and compassion for the women and have sympathy for them because of what they have been through. But I will also not waiver in my conviction that abortion is murder.

Now what?

Don't have an abortion yourself and if you want to stop people from having any abortion start by making them less necessary by providing comprehensive science-based sexual education to children and teen, good, effective, available and cheap birth control methods, properly fund pre and neo-natal care, militate for lengthier and more generous paid family leave, militate for the return of family economics classes in schools for both boys and girls, etc.

 

[Maximus]

Don't have an abortion yourself.

That is a given. But insufficient. Murder must be opposed therefore I must advocate for the eradication of abortion and pray that women come to that view as well.

 

[Maximus]

Don't have an abortion yourself and if you want to stop people from having any abortion start by making them less necessary by providing comprehensive science-based sexual education to children and teen, good, effective, available and cheap birth control methods, properly fund pre and neo-natal care, militate for lengthier and more generous paid family leave, militate for the return of family economics classes in schools for both boys and girls, etc.

You make many suggestions I agree with.

 

[Jim]

So what happens after listening to them, reading their stories, and spending time with them? Do I then just abandon my convictions, toss aside what I believe to be true and right just because someone might be offended?

If you’re asking for my opinion, I would say no.

For example, I have heard the stories of many women who have had abortions.

Good. I’m glad for that. That’s part of what I think the world needs.

Now what?

I have some other ideas that I’ll post later.

 

[epronovost]

That is a given.

You could be surprised. As part of my work, I have met many abortion providers and people who requested abortions. People being opposed to abortion, linking it to a murder, often request abortions themselves when faced with a pregnancy they simply can't afford. It's easy to say ''I'll never do that!'' until you find yourself in a terrible situation where you are forced to either walk over your own principles or personnaly suffer (and potentially make someone else suffer too). It's a trivial task to be an angel in paradise, in the mud of our Earth, not so much.

 

[Maximus]

You could be surprised. As part of my work, I have met many abortion providers and people who requested abortions. People being opposed to abortion, linking it to a murder, often request abortions themselves when faced with a pregnancy they simply can't afford. It's easy to say ''I'll never do that!'' until you find yourself in a terrible situation where you are forced to either walk over your own principles or personnaly suffer (and potentially make someone else suffer too). It's a trivial task to be an angel in paradise, in the mud of our Earth, not so much.

Yes, there are many people who are weak in their convictions of what is true and right.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I find this sort of tripe dangerously naive and privileged. People have feelings and those feelings are important. We are a social species. Our social standing and relationships are an important part of our lives and wellbeing. Everybody can ignore some psychological abuse just like anybody can ignore some physical abuse, but at some point everybody has a breaking point. Words are powerful. Just like any other weapons they should wielded with some care and mindfullness.

You are entitled to your opinion. In mine, people place far too much importance on certain things, and allow them to be damaging. This includes their relationships with other people. It may be that I am "privileged" - but if so, it is only because my psychological state insures the I am insulated from harm by other individual's mere words. Make no mistake, people try. But as soon as their intent is to harm with their words, I shut off the part of me that cares what they have to say. It is easy. So easy that I don't even have to think about it anymore. I will state it again, for it bears repeating... words only have the amount of power you are willing to grant them. There isn't much of a way to get around this one, for words have no power if you do not give them power.

If you want a simple thought experiment that exposes this as fact, try listening in on a conversation being held in a language you do not at all understand. Do the words being spoken hurt you when you do not understand what it being said? Is it ONLY because you cannot understand what is being said that they are not hurting you? If you say "yes", that it is only lack of understanding that protects you, how are you certain of this? Because you feel "hurt" the moment you do understand? What if you could simply choose not to understand? It is something akin to this of which I am able.

 

[Jim]

People whose beliefs look and feel hurtful and injurious to others might learn all the knowledge and skills that I would want them to learn, if they read those people’s stories and spend time with them side by side in some kind of community service. I had some other ideas for people with beliefs like that, but Quintessence has already posted them. I think that they’re worth repeating.

In my own Code of Honor, there's a clause that specifically addresses the importance of speaking criticism carefully in part because of the weight of words. Criticism is necessary, but it is good to carefully weigh it before issuing it. And when issuing it, consider the weight of those words on the audience and how to best preserve peaceable dialogue while also offering criticism. It's very possible to do this, though more difficult through impersonal communications media like a web forum where vocal cues and body language are absent.

My mind is often drawn to a discussion group I participated in many years ago. It was a diverse crowd of folks there to discuss deep issues - there were Pagans, Evangelicals, Jews, Atheists... we were quite the collection. The Evangelical would straight up say to our Pagan faces that we were going to hell in his view. But he also made it clear that he still respected and appreciated us as people. That's the art of communication - you can convey disapproval while also still respecting the person. And if you can't do that, it is usually better to not open your mouth at all and leave the room.

 

[Jim]

Since I often start threads in debate forums, some people might not realize that I started this one in a non debate forum. I added a note to the OP to make that clear.

 

[epronovost]

You are entitled to your opinion. In mine, people place far too much importance on certain things, and allow them to be damaging. This includes their relationships with other people. It may be that I am "privileged" - but if so, it is only because my psychological state insures the I am insulated from harm by other individual's mere words. Make no mistake, people try. But as soon as their intent is to harm with their words, I shut off the part of me that cares what they have to say. It is easy. So easy that I don't even have to think about it anymore. I will state it again, for it bears repeating... words only have the amount of power you are willing to grant them. There isn't much of a way to get around this one, for words have no power if you do not give them power.

If you want a simple thought experiment that exposes this as fact, try listening in on a conversation being held in a language you do not at all understand. Do the words being spoken hurt you when you do not understand what it being said? Is it ONLY because you cannot understand what is being said that they are not hurting you? If you say "yes", that it is only lack of understanding that protects you, how are you certain of this? Because you feel "hurt" the moment you do understand? What if you could simply choose not to understand? It is something akin to this of which I am able.

I wonder how you deal with slander, threats, lies and breakups. Hell, I wonder how you deal with any interpersonnal conflict. I also wonder if your ability to ignore people has also made you blind to what you are actually missing and loosing too.

 

[Revoltingest]

NOTE:I’m posting this in the Interfaith Discussion forum, which is not a debate forum. What I’m asking for here is helping ideas for people on all sides of this issue.

I’ll start with an example of what I would not do. I would not quote anti-homosexuality clobber verses in the middle of a discussion about prejudice and discrimination against gays.

Sometimes people see and feel some beliefs as hurtful and injurious to them. What Ideas do you have for those people who feel hurt and injured? What ideas do you have for people who honestly and sincerely believe those things? What ideas do you have for other people who are concerned about those issues?

One of my ideas for people who honestly and sincerely believe things that people sometimes see and feel as hurtful and injurious to them, is to read some of their stories. Another is to spend some time with some of them side-by-side, in some kind of community service.

What to do...
- Eschew anger.
- Understand.
- Discuss in a civil & engaging manner.
- Don't expect to win arguments.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I wonder how you deal with slander, threats, lies and breakups. Hell, I wonder how you deal with any interpersonnal conflict. I also wonder if your ability to ignore people has also made you blind to what you are actually missing and loosing too.

Why would you assume that I "ignore" people? I merely ignore the effects they try to push onto me with negative intent. They simply cannot "get to" me with such intent. Can't. They've failed the moment they've started.

Slander? Meaning that it has affected others opinions of me to the point that it has had some detrimental effect on my livelihood? You see... this is all part of the "interpersonal relationships" you spoke of. If there are people who wish to break ties to me based on someone else's opinion, then they were likely not worth my time in the first place. They are ones who too easily place power in the hands of words - which is basically what you are advocating that everyone do. You're saying it in a more presentable/palatable way, of course - by saying that everyone should mind their p's and q's so that no one gets hurt. But that is a stance that implicitly informs everyone that they SHOULD be hurt by words. It is enabling, in a way.

Threats? A threat isn't really a threat until your physicality is in danger. Before that it is, again, just words. This is proven in the fact that people can make threats that they don't intend on carrying through to action. Taking action to make good on a threat? There's the real problem you're after. The words themselves can serve as a warning, perhaps. A reason to keep a look out. But otherwise, the actual threat with words did absolutely nothing to you.

Breakups? Should I be forced to care in this instance? I am what I am, and if someone doesn't wish to be around me, so be it. Think about that... it is THEIR choice. You simply MUST acknowledge that, I assume? What good does it do me to lament, and concentrate on, and worry over what was ultimately their choice, and what I must assume they felt was a move made for their greater good? Are you saying I should be hurt by someone's desires not to be around me as often? Should I necessarily feel that this hurts me? Why? In what way was I damaged? Besides this, what do you think that particular desire of distance from someone else ACTUALLY says about what you are? If you are good with what you are, then it need inform you of nothing. Besides this... breakups themselves are not "words" alone. This is in another category of "thing" entirely.

As far as interpersonal relationships go, I am very much one to weigh the things I truly "need" versus those that I merely desire. "Need" is a very strong word, that many, many people use far too lightly. If I am enamored with someone and they with me, great, we have a good thing going. I'm not going to screw it up by "ignoring" the positive aspects of our relationship. But you can be damn sure I will ignore the intended negative ones. They have no power over me. I don't care who they are. My own parents don't even have such power over me. Why would I grant them that?

 

[Windwalker]

Yes, there are many people who are weak in their convictions of what is true and right.

And there are those who don't know what they really believe, until actually faced with the harder questions of making choices. It's all good and fine to claim you are a saint, in an ivory tower. In fact, that is very much what Jesus was teaching in telling the self-assured religious folks of his day to not be feel all that safe in their judgments of others, and who or what is considered sin. It's right there in the gospels.

Experience shows, that the "true believer" has the weakest faith, and when a challenge comes their way, they either dig in deeper entrenched in their particular perspective, or they abandon those beliefs entirely when the challenge is sufficiently strong enough. Then they find a new truth to entrench themselves into again, bringing that same weak faith with them into their next "true believer" phase. All this is typical of those who have not really discovered what they truly do believe in personally. "I believe in X" is nothing until it meets the light of reality.

 

[Jim]

Thinking about what I’ve learned to do about beliefs that look and feel hurtful and injurious to me, I see that, speaking only for myself, it isn’t actually anyone’s beliefs that look and feel that way to me. It’s when, where and how they talk about them sometimes.

My first thought is to go back to what I’ve been saying in another thread. When I see people jabbing and stabbing at me and some people that I identify with, if I see misunderstandings or misinformation and I want to respond to it, I won’t do it in that thread. I’ll find or start another thread, where my view of it will be on topic. If I think that it might need to be reported, I’ll report it. Apart from those two actions, I won’t respond to it at all, not even to object to it or to say that I reported it.

Different people are at different stages in learning non injurious ways of promoting and defending their ideas and interests. For some of us, there are some people we just need to avoid, even if they have the best motives and intentions.

One way to help people along in that learning, is encouraging them to read the stories of people who are targets of their disapproval, and to spend time with them side by side in some kind of community service.