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What to do about hurtfulness of some beliefs?

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I never once worded any of my statements as "I did it, why can't you?" You just love to put words in my mouth and demonize the message I have to offer. Why is that? Why can't you stand the fact that someone might like to share the ideas and rationalizations that may lead to being able to discard hurtful words like so much dryer lint? Note: this is not me saying that someone's pain is "dryer lint." Do you get that? If you can't, then you are no better at thinking than those people who would dismiss my claims outright about being able to dismiss words without further ado - and instead suffer even more greatly because of my words because they think I am trivializing their pain - and likely obviously thinking that their psychological suffering must have been SO MUCH GREATER than my own. THAT, my friend, is ego. You keep accusing me of having this huge ego... whatever. As far as I can see you are running in circles.

From personal experience, alcoholics also often let their egos get in the way of listening to any actual advice or criticism of their decisions. Decisions that even they lament put them in a bad way both physically and psychologically. My own brother is an alcoholic. And do you know? I never tell him he shouldn't have a drink, that he should be doing things differently, etc. I've seen my parents take that tack and he only ever gets pissed off at them, claims they couldn't possibly understand, and will then turn around and say he wishes he could just stop. I attempt to treat him only as my brother, let him know I am here whenever he needs to talk, etc. And I make our conversations about philosophical meanderings, try and give him different perspective on things in general... always steering clear of the alcohol subject - because it is a sore spot unless he is "on the wagon." (which he is at the moment, by the way). But in the end, this is still my attempting to wrestle him out from under the burdens he puts on himself. I do so by attempting to get him to change his perspective on the things he comes in contact with that trouble him so. Much as I have advocated for in this thread with people and their acceptance or rejection of words. People like you, however, want to just grant people all their pain, pat their heads gently, and tell them "it isn't your fault - take all the time you need - words DO hurt, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise." That's obviously a very rough paraphrasing of what I imagine your message to them must be like. What a waste. It is troubling that there are so many like you in that regard as well.


And they who are so suffering will not even entertain the notion of what I might have to offer them. It's not my problem. I am not actively trying to trivialize their emotional pain so much as try and inform them that it can be trivialized. Again - you can't argue against that point. You can't. You have nothing in your arsenal except to keep reiterating that these people are suffering... and yet it is needless suffering. Completely needless.

How DARE they not entertain your advice! Of course, it MIGHT be because they’ve heard your simplistic drivel hundreds of times and they already know how useless it is for them. And it’s WONDERFUL that you’re not ACTIVELY TRYING to trivialize their pain. Yet, when informed that your method often DOES make them feel as if you’re trivializing their pain, your response it basically I DON’T GIVE A FLYING FIG! So you may not be TRYING to trivialize their pain, but ultimately you don’t CARE if that’s what you end up doing. Yet another indication that your goal isn’t REALLY to help anyone, but to just bolster your ego by pretending that you helping.

I never once worded any of my statements as "I did it, why can't you?"

Yet when I suggested that that’s what you’re saying when I wrote: Your entire message seems to be is I CAN DO IT, SO WHY CAN’T YOU?

YOUR response was: That IS what I am saying.

Gosh… sure sounds like YOUR words coming out of YOUR mouth. So are you REALLY going to sit there and try to claim it’s not what you meant?

As for people who have suffered severe psychological trauma having been SO MUCH GREATER THAN YOURS, just take a minute to reread what you’ve written. You’ve admitted more than once that you haven’t suffer any major psychological trauma and grew up in a relatively stable household. Are you going to sit there and deny that as well?

From personal experience, alcoholics also often let their egos get in the way of listening to any actual advice or criticism of their decisions. Decisions that even they lament put them in a bad way both physically and psychologically. My own brother is an alcoholic. And do you know? I never tell him he shouldn't have a drink, that he should be doing things differently, etc. I've seen my parents take that tack and he only ever gets pissed off at them, claims they couldn't possibly understand, and will then turn around and say he wishes he could just stop. I attempt to treat him only as my brother, let him know I am here whenever he needs to talk, etc. And I make our conversations about philosophical meanderings, try and give him different perspective on things in general... always steering clear of the alcohol subject - because it is a sore spot unless he is "on the wagon." (which he is at the moment, by the way). But in the end, this is still my attempting to wrestle him out from under the burdens he puts on himself. I do so by attempting to get him to change his perspective on the things he comes in contact with that trouble him so. Much as I have advocated for in this thread with people and their acceptance or rejection of words. People like you, however, want to just grant people all their pain, pat their heads gently, and tell them "it isn't your fault - take all the time you need - words DO hurt, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise." That's obviously a very rough paraphrasing of what I imagine your message to them must be like. What a waste. It is troubling that there are so many like you in that regard as well.

For your brother’s sake I certainly hope that for him you at least recognize that HE suffers from a condition that you do NOT. Hopefully you don’t just tell him: I was able to choose to simply quit drinking, so you can too! Hopefully you recognize that HIS ability to quit drinking is NOT the same as yours. Hopefully you recognize that HE may need outside help in order to deal with the problem and that the first step is in recognizing that he has a problem and that he CAN’T just ‘simply stop drinking’ the way that YOU could. Sadly, the fact that you wrote: But in the end, this is still my attempting to wrestle him out from under the burdens he puts on himself. As if your brother CHOSE to be born with a physiology that processes alcohol differently than you do.


People like you, however, want to just grant people all their pain, pat their heads gently, and tell them "it isn't your fault - take all the time you need - words DO hurt, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise." That's obviously a very rough paraphrasing of what I imagine your message to them must be like. What a waste. It is troubling that there are so many like you in that regard as well.


If what you mean by ‘grant people all their pain’ is that I recognize that the pain they feel is as real to them as any pain that I feel, yes, it IS important to validate that the pain they feel is very real. Ask any health care professional and they’ll tell you the same. And yes, it IS important to let them know that their lack of tools to deal with their pin is NOT their fault. How the heck do you imagine that telling a person that’s suffered mental abuse that the reason they don’t have the tools to deal with the pain is THEIR fault is somehow helpful? And yes, it IS important to tell them that you recognize that words can hurt… but THEN you explain how if they get the proper therapy they can eventually develop the skills needed so that words don’t HAVE to hurt.


As I said, I’ve worked with people who have suffered serious mental abuse for the past 20 years. The methods I’m advocating WORK and people like you who just say: I did it, why can’t you? do far more harm than good... people who suffer in this way have TOLD me so. Yet for some sad reason your massive ego won’t allow you to consider the possibility that people who deal with mentally abused people just might know a bit more than you do.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
The methods I’m advocating WORK ...
I hope that you will post about those methods in this thread: Ideas for reducing and counteracting effects of psychological abuse

Do the methods you’re advocating include endless, aimless preaching and personal attacks against people that you think are abusing people, like what you’re doing in this thread? Is that part of what you do offline? Do you have any reason to think that it will do anyone any more good online than it does offline? If not, I hope that you will stop, because you’re helping to derail this thread, and giving Vestigial Mote more of a platform and more reasons to continue gaslighting. Without you and @Ayjaydee to play with, he might never have posted more than once in this thread.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I hope that you will post about those methods in this thread: Ideas for reducing and counteracting effects of psychological abuse

Do the methods you’re advocating include endless, aimless preaching and personal attacks against people that you think are abusing people, like what you’re doing in this thread? Is that part of what you do offline? Do you have any reason to think that it will do anyone any more good online than it does offline? If not, I hope that you will stop, because you’re helping to derail this thread, and giving Vestigial Mote more of a platform and more reasons to continue gaslighting. Without you and @Ayjaydee to play with, he might never have posted more than once in this thread.

If you bothered to read my entire post then you already know what methods I advocate. I said:

If what you mean by ‘grant people all their pain’ is that I recognize that the pain they feel is as real to them as any pain that I feel, yes, it IS important to validate that the pain they feel is very real. Ask any health care professional and they’ll tell you the same. And yes, it IS important to let them know that their lack of tools to deal with their pin is NOT their fault. How the heck do you imagine that telling a person that’s suffered mental abuse that the reason they don’t have the tools to deal with the pain is THEIR fault is in any way helpful? And yes, it IS important to tell them that you recognize that words can hurt… but THEN you explain how if they get the proper therapy they can eventually develop the skills needed so that words don’t HAVE to hurt.

So sorry if you perceive the debate we're having as 'endless, aimless preaching and personal attacks', but just because you started this thread doesn't mean you can have control over the conversations that your thread inspired. Just because people don't respond exactly like you want them to doesn't mean that your thread has been 'derailed'. If you think that it does, then perhaps it's possible that a forum like this isn't the place for you.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
How DARE they not entertain your advice! Of course, it MIGHT be because they’ve heard your simplistic drivel hundreds of times and they already know how useless it is for them. And it’s WONDERFUL that you’re not ACTIVELY TRYING to trivialize their pain. Yet, when informed that your method often DOES make them feel as if you’re trivializing their pain, your response it basically I DON’T GIVE A FLYING FIG! So you may not be TRYING to trivialize their pain, but ultimately you don’t CARE if that’s what you end up doing. Yet another indication that your goal isn’t REALLY to help anyone, but to just bolster your ego by pretending that you helping.
My advice obviously doesn't need to be taken. I readily admit this. However what I get back when I point out that words don't have to be accepted as actual damage is much like what I am getting from you - aggression, and defensiveness. Do you know what it is you are defending? You're defending that pain. You're defending that damage. Which means to me that some part of a person reacting this way must necessarily want to hold on to it. And I find that to be a grossly unhealthy mindset.

I never once worded any of my statements as "I did it, why can't you?"
Yet when I suggested that that’s what you’re saying when I wrote: Your entire message seems to be is I CAN DO IT, SO WHY CAN’T YOU?
My entire message is that it is possible, with the right mindset, and that I am proof. If that equates to "I can do it, so why can't you?" then so be it. You can pin that on me at this point - what of it? Again, what would be objectively wrong with stating even that? And again here - defensiveness on this point is you defending people's psychological pain. They have every right to feel it... but they don't want to. And so, their flippantly and angrily dismissing something I might be doing differently is simply strange. At that point, who can care?

YOUR response was: That IS what I am saying.
This was in response to this part of your older post specifically:
QuestioningMind said:
It’s not like you’re feeling REAL pain, it’s all in your head!
You posted it as if it were a completely crazy idea, and that it couldn't possibly reflect reality. But the reality and facts of the matter dictate that one must entirely accept that psychological pain is literally "all in one's head." There isn't really a way around this. It may cause you physical problems due to nervousness, anxiety, sleep depravation - but the impetus, and the controlling factors ARE all in the sufferer's head. There is nowhere else to point to to "find" them. Nowhere at all.

As for people who have suffered severe psychological trauma having been SO MUCH GREATER THAN YOURS, just take a minute to reread what you’ve written. You’ve admitted more than once that you haven’t suffer any major psychological trauma and grew up in a relatively stable household. Are you going to sit there and deny that as well?
All I actually said was that I had a stable and mostly loving home-life. So I wasn't getting the abuses from that direction at least. You have no idea how badly I was abused psychologically by my peers, and myself during my youth. And I would never, ever make a claim to know how badly I was abused either. I'm not in the business of claiming that I have suffered so greatly. I leave that to people who think they have the measuring stick all figured out.

For your brother’s sake I certainly hope that for him you at least recognize that HE suffers from a condition that you do NOT. Hopefully you don’t just tell him: I was able to choose to simply quit drinking, so you can too! Hopefully you recognize that HIS ability to quit drinking is NOT the same as yours.
I barely drink. I have no idea what it is like to be an alcoholic. This is part of the reason I tip-toe around the subject with my brother, because I fully recognize that I do not have a handle on what he is dealing with.

Psychological pain and attacks however? I do have experience. Much of which has led me to the point I am at.

As if your brother CHOSE to be born with a physiology that processes alcohol differently than you do.
What on Earth are you talking about? My brother has built up tolerances over a long haul of partying, and then as he got older, his tolerance continued to build due to him attempting to drown sorrows in the drink. For all I know there were initially no differences to how we processed alcohol. There are now, of course, because he has forced his body to become accustomed to its presence. I have little to no tolerance, because I barely touch the stuff. Do you honestly think my brother could always drink himself silly and then carry on as if he hadn't taken a drink? If you think that then you are sorely mistaken, and apparently grossly misinformed.

If what you mean by ‘grant people all their pain’ is that I recognize that the pain they feel is as real to them as any pain that I feel, yes, it IS important to validate that the pain they feel is very real. Ask any health care professional and they’ll tell you the same. And yes, it IS important to let them know that their lack of tools to deal with their pin is NOT their fault. How the heck do you imagine that telling a person that’s suffered mental abuse that the reason they don’t have the tools to deal with the pain is THEIR fault is somehow helpful? And yes, it IS important to tell them that you recognize that words can hurt… but THEN you explain how if they get the proper therapy they can eventually develop the skills needed so that words don’t HAVE to hurt.

As I said, I’ve worked with people who have suffered serious mental abuse for the past 20 years. The methods I’m advocating WORK and people like you who just say: I did it, why can’t you? do far more harm than good... people who suffer in this way have TOLD me so. Yet for some sad reason your massive ego won’t allow you to consider the possibility that people who deal with mentally abused people just might know a bit more than you do.
So things are getting better with these people whose psychological pain due to spoken words is held by all around them as being of this level of importance? You say this has helped a significant portion of people? Do those people no longer take on psychologically targeted pain in the same way? Or are they still susceptible? My guess is that the current thoughts on the matter actually help to perpetuate the issues, rather than give people the tools to protect themselves from such attacks. From what I have experienced in my own lifetime, people are only becoming more and more sensitive to the words of others, and only more and more people are seeking the type of help you are talking about. So to my mind, that poses some possibilities. Perhaps there are more people employing more devastating forms of emotional/psychological attack, and therefore more people are in need of therapy? Greater access to therapy being a relatively "new" thing, perhaps people were always suffering, but just didn't have an outlet for it, and so it wasn't spoken of or known? Perhaps people being told that psychological attack is something that should be taken very seriously has made them do just that, to the point that they accept people's words and feel attacked extremely readily? In the latter scenario, therapy reinforcing the power of words over people's lives would be giving them tools to recognize and prioritize psychological attacks, rather than giving them the tools to protect themselves from them. The trend toward extreme forms of political correctness, people being fired over words on social media, people immediately and intensely distancing themselves from a person who they have had some relationship with, all because of some words they spoke - not even necessarily words in favor of some terrible philosophy or belying some dangerous mindset - sometimes just stupid jokes or slip-ups, or being vilified and attacked in return with far more detriment to their actual person and livelihood than any detriment that can be claimed from those that originally read the words - this all exists and seems to be mounting in frequency in these days when those attending or seeking therapy is also an increasing trend. I don't know... seems counter-intuitive to me if all this stuff is actually helping as you claim. Perhaps my idea of what actual "progress" would look like is simply very different from yours.
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Also defending personal attacks as a way of arguing.
Actually, I hadn't thought of argumentation in this vein. Perhaps this isn't what you're saying - but granting psychological or personal attacks some amount of undue power or importance may actually lend the words some credence in the mind of the person being attacked. As in - they may not understand or contemplate that the argument being pointed at them is "ad hominem" (and therefore fallacious), and instead focus on their feelings at being attacked as an important point to be made in rebuttal. In other words, an inability to detach themselves from the words being spoken to them.

I think that’s true of some popular ways of thinking.
It just seems to me that if people couldn't be hurt by words, then others who wanted to turn to that form of attack would be more likely to give it up because it would be understood that it is ineffectual. Instead, much priority and importance is given to words by nearly everyone - which leads to people having a good idea how easily and readily they can push someone else's buttons.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
My advice obviously doesn't need to be taken. I readily admit this. However what I get back when I point out that words don't have to be know... seems counter-intuitive to me if all this stuff is actually helping as you claim. Perhaps my idea of what actual "progress" would look like is simply very different from yours.

My advice obviously doesn't need to be taken. I readily admit this. However what I get back when I point out that words don't have to be accepted as actual damage is much like what I am getting from you - aggression, and defensiveness. Do you know what it is you are defending? You're defending that pain. You're defending that damage. Which means to me that some part of a person reacting this way must necessarily want to hold on to it. And I find that to be a grossly unhealthy mindset.


I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall. YES, words don’t HAVE to be damaging. And for people LIKE YOU who were fortunate enough to develop the tools to NOT allow words to damage them, it’s relatively easy to ignore the pain and avoid the damage. Sadly, for people who suffered serious emotional abuse, they have NOT developed such tools. For them, not matter how much they might WANT to ignore the pain, they never learned HOW to ignore it. What is grossly unhealthy is for you to assume that because they were unfortunate enough to never develop such skills that they actually WANT to continue suffering.


I’m not defending the notion that they will NEVER be able to develop such skills, only that until they DO develop such skills, they have no control over how they react to painful words. So NO, I am NOT in any way shape or form ‘defending that damage’. What I am doing is defending the legitimacy of what they are feeling against people like you who have this simplistic notion that these damaged people actually WANT to keep suffering.


My entire message is that it is possible, with the right mindset, and that I am proof. If that equates to "I can do it, so why can't you?" then so be it. You can pin that on me at this point - what of it? Again, what would be objectively wrong with stating even that? And again here - defensiveness on this point is you defending people's psychological pain. They have every right to feel it... but they don't want to. And so, their flippantly and angrily dismissing something I might be doing differently is simply strange. At that point, who can care?


What you are proof of is that IF you’re fortunate enough to have developed the skills necessary it’s possible to have the right mindset to not allow words to hurt. When you say: IF I can do it, why can’t you? you are COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that the reason YOU can do it is because you’ve devolved these skill and the reason why they CAN’T is because they have NOT been so lucky as to have learned said skills. What they are angrily responding to is your unwillingness to recognize that your life experiences have been completely different from theirs.


And really, let’s stop pretending that you actually care. You’ve made it crystal clear that if your advice for someone who is enduring horrible suffering actually causes them to experience even greater suffering that you couldn’t care less.


It’s not like you’re feeling REAL pain, it’s all in your head!

You posted it as if it were a completely crazy idea, and that it couldn't possibly reflect reality. But the reality and facts of the matter dictate that one must entirely accept that psychological pain is literally "all in one's head." There isn't really a way around this. It may cause you physical problems due to nervousness, anxiety, sleep depravation - but the impetus, and the controlling factors ARE all in the sufferer's head. There is nowhere else to point to to "find" them. Nowhere at all.


I don’t have the slightest problem with acknowledging that psychological pain is all in the head. What I strenuously object to is you claiming that psychological pain is in some way NOT REAL. I’ve got news for you, physical pain is NOT the only REAL pain. In fact, psychological pain can be FAR WORSE than any physical pain. That’s why there are people who suffer great psychological pain who seek out MERE physical pain as a distraction from their FAR WORSE psychological pain.

You’re like someone who’s worst physical pain was a hangnail telling someone who suffers chronic back pain that their pain can’t possibly be all that bad. The psychological pain that you experienced as a boy when others kids called you fat or stupid is comparable to a hangnail when measured against the psychological pain that others have endured. Are you so self-absorbed that you can’t comprehend that not everyone has been as fortunate as you?

All I actually said was that I had a stable and mostly loving home-life. So I wasn't getting the abuses from that direction at least. You have no idea how badly I was abused psychologically by my peers, and myself during my youth. And I would never, ever make a claim to know how badly I was abused either. I'm not in the business of claiming that I have suffered so greatly. I leave that to people who think they have the measuring stick all figured out.



Sadly you don’t recognize that having been lucky enough to have a stable and mostly loving home-life is what gave you the tools needed to be able to deal with the psychological abuse of your peers. Again, are you so self-absorbed that you can’t comprehend that not everyone has been as fortunate as you? SOME people come from unstable homes where they were terribly abused by the people who were supposed to love them the most. And as a consequence the psychological pain they experiences is infinitely greater than anything you’ve ever experienced. Kind of like the difference between an annoying hangnail and debilitating pain from a crushed spinal disk.


I barely drink. I have no idea what it is like to be an alcoholic. This is part of the reason I tip-toe around the subject with my brother, because I fully recognize that I do not have a handle on what he is dealing with.

Psychological pain and attacks however? I do have experience. Much of which has led me to the point I am at.


So unless you grew up in a chaotic home where the people who were supposed to love you abused you in awful ways, you should also recognize that you do not have a handle on what they are dealing with. It’s the same as someone who barely drinks claiming that this means they have experience with what an alcoholic goes through. You clearly GET IT when it comes to alcoholism, so why is it so difficult for you to grasp the exact same concept when it comes to psychological pain?

What on Earth are you talking about? My brother has built up tolerances over a long haul of partying, and then as he got older, his tolerance continued to build due to him attempting to drown sorrows in the drink. For all I know there were initially no differences to how we processed alcohol. There are now, of course, because he has forced his body to become accustomed to its presence. I have little to no tolerance, because I barely touch the stuff. Do you honestly think my brother could always drink himself silly and then carry on as if he hadn't taken a drink? If you think that then you are sorely mistaken, and apparently grossly misinformed.

Then clearly your brother is someone who abuses alcohol, not an alcoholic. People with alcoholism DO process alcohol differently than others.


You say this has helped a significant portion of people? Do those people no longer take on psychologically targeted pain in the same way? Or are they still susceptible?

It’s a process. Just like the first thing an alcoholic needs to do before they can ever hope to get better is to admit that they have a problem. Of course, simply admitting that they have a problem does NOT mean that they’re instantly cured or that they are no longer susceptible. It takes a great deal of work AFTER making that admission. For SOME alcoholics all they need is to recognize they have a problem… but for OTHERS they may still need help in developing the tools to stay away from alcohol. The first thing someone who’s suffered severe psychological damage needs to do is accept that they have a problem, that they don’t process emotional pain the same way most people do. They need to have acknowledgement that the pain they feel is VERY real to them. But of course simply recognizing that they have a problem and getting recognition that their pain is real for them does NOT mean that they’re instantly cured and no longer susceptible. There’s still LOTS of work that needs to be done. But that doesn’t change the reality that for the majority of those suffering in this way, those first steps must first be taken.


From what I have experienced in my own lifetime, people are only becoming more and more sensitive to the words of others, and only more and more people are seeking the type of help you are talking about. . The trend toward extreme forms of political correctness, people being fired over words on social media, people immediately and intensely distancing themselves from a person who they have had some relationship with, all because of some words they spoke - not even necessarily words in favor of some terrible philosophy or belying some dangerous mindset - sometimes just stupid jokes or slip-ups, or being vilified and attacked in return with far more detriment to their actual person and livelihood than any detriment that can be claimed from those that originally read the words - this all exists and seems to be mounting in frequency in these days when those attending or seeking therapy is also an increasing trend. I don't know... seems counter-intuitive to me if all this stuff is actually helping as you claim. Perhaps my idea of what actual "progress" would look like is simply very different from yours.



What you describe above are people taking offense, NOT people suffering from psychological pain. Trying to conflate the two is nothing short of ridiculous.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
Actually, I hadn't thought of argumentation in this vein. Perhaps this isn't what you're saying - but granting psychological or personal attacks some amount of undue power or importance may actually lend the words some credence in the mind of the person being attacked. As in - they may not understand or contemplate that the argument being pointed at them is "ad hominem" (and therefore fallacious), and instead focus on their feelings at being attacked as an important point to be made in rebuttal. In other words, an inability to detach themselves from the words being spoken to them.
Maybe not exactly what I was thinking, but close. What I meant was that by using personal attacks against you, your adversaries are endorsing personal attacks as a debate tactic. They aren’t actually opposed to abusive behavior and hurting people. Their only disagreements with you are about who the targets can be, and what excuses to use for the abuse.
It just seems to me that if people couldn't be hurt by words, then others who wanted to turn to that form of attack would be more likely to give it up because it would be understood that it is ineffectual. Instead, much priority and importance is given to words by nearly everyone - which leads to people having a good idea how easily and readily they can push someone else's buttons.
That isn’t what I was thinking, but it looks plausible to me. One problem I see in society now is that being hurt by words has become a popular bullying and abuse tactic, and political and fundraising tool, in identity factions, which means that it would be contrary to their interests for people to learn not to be hurt. It has also become a popular excuse for censorship and repression. The writing and speaking careers of many people revolve around hurt feelings which they help perpetuate and intensify. I don’t see any of that as a reason not to try to avoid damaging people.

I agree that it’s possible for people to learn not to be damaged by words, and part of that is learning new ways of thinking and reacting. I have some objections to the ways that you say that you’re practicing and promoting. Also, I don’t see that as a reason not to try to avoid damaging people.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
I’m seeing two issues that I want to discuss separately:
- How to help reduce and counteract adverse effects of popular ways of thinking that devalue some groups and categories of people. That’s what I had in mind when I started this thread.
- How to reduce and counteract adverse effects of cruelty and personal attacks against people individually. I started a separate thread for that.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I’ll post again my questions for this thread, and my answers.

- Do you have any ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them?

They might need to stay away from some people, maybe even some kind-hearted people with the best intentions. We all need healthy friendships and a healthy community life. Stay away from identity factions and their ideologies, and from campaigns of denunciation. There is training available to help people learn not to be demoralized and disabled by what other people say about them. After that, if they’re in a category that is a popular target of damaging misinformation and misrepresentation, if they want to they can help by spending time side-by-side with some misguided people in some kind of community service.

- Do you have any ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people?

Read their stories, and spend some time with some of them side-by-side in some kind of community service.

- Do you have any ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?

Besides what I’ve already said, learn more about psychological abuse, and what to do and what not to do when we see it happening. A place to start might be friendly attention to people when they might be adversely affected, and openly disapproving of cruelty without arguing about it with people when they’re practicing it.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
There has been a lot of suffering, oppression, and damage to people’s lives by popular ways of thinking and talking about some groups and categories of people. A lot of people are feeling anxiety and guilt about that, and saying that people are being hurt has become popular as an abuse and bullying tactic, political and fundraising tool, excuse for censorship and repression, and theme for writing and speaking careers. That has had a “boy who cried wolf” effect on a lot of people, and possibly made things worse for people who actually are being damaged and oppressed by popular ways of thinking. I think it’s possible though, to avoid being part of the problems of damage and oppression, without being a fool and a tool for any identity faction.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Now I’m wondering if there’s anyone else here who is trying to help reduce and counteract the damage and oppression from some popular ways of thinking about some groups and categories of people, and who also sees how allegations of psychological damage are being widely misused, for example as an abuse and bullying tactic; for political, fundraising and career purposes; and as an excuse for censorship and repression.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Possibly many or most people will misunderstand what I’ve been saying here. I’ll try to explain it more. I’ve posted a lot in these forums about online cruelty and personal attacks against people individually, but that isn’t what I’m thinking about in this thread, and there might be differences in how to respond to it. What I’m thinking about in this thread is oppression and psychological damage from some popular ways of thinking about some groups and categories of people. Even if you don’t believe that happens or you have no interest in doing anything about it, you might still have ideas about what you might do if you believed it and wanted to do something about it. I see the same thing happening to men and boys, and to white people, oppression and psychological damage from some popular ways of thinking men and women, sexism, white people, and racism. I think it could possibly also be happening to conservative Christians, although I haven’t seen anyone saying that it is.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Actually, I hadn't thought of argumentation in this vein. Perhaps this isn't what you're saying - but granting psychological or personal attacks some amount of undue power or importance may actually lend the words some credence in the mind of the person being attacked. As in - they may not understand or contemplate that the argument being pointed at them is "ad hominem" (and therefore fallacious), and instead focus on their feelings at being attacked as an important point to be made in rebuttal. In other words, an inability to detach themselves from the words being spoken to them.

It just seems to me that if people couldn't be hurt by words, then others who wanted to turn to that form of attack would be more likely to give it up because it would be understood that it is ineffectual. Instead, much priority and importance is given to words by nearly everyone - which leads to people having a good idea how easily and readily they can push someone else's buttons.
We might be seeing some of the same things, in some abusive and oppressive ways that people are using hurt feelings. Do you see any harm in what I’m promoting in this post?
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
I’m bringing this up for discussion again because in another discussion someone mentioned toxic effects on atheists, gays and women, from people promoting some religious beliefs.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
Not a response to anything so far said besides the opening question,
from nobody in particular who just got here
I personally like what Hillel said,
that which is hurtful to you, do not do to another.
nuff said IMHO....any more is merely contentious,
[which I suppose is useful as it identifies the manure disturbers and the hurt souls]
 
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