What to do about hurtfulness of some beliefs?

[Jim]

Anyone who wants to help reduce and counteract adverse effects of what people say about other people might need to be better informed about psychological abuse, and what to do and what not to do when they see it happening. I’ve been discussing that in another thread, with links to some resources that look helpful to me.

Ideas for reducing and counteracting effects of psychological abuse

 

[Ayjaydee]

A friend who had once been a mercenary soldier felt that if someone attacked him with the weapon they were good at using, he felt justified in retaliating with the weapons he was good with.

 

[Jim]

I’ll review and update my own answers to my questions.

- Do you have any more ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them?

They might need to stay away from some people, maybe even some kind-hearted people with the best intentions. There is training available to help people learn not to be demoralized and disabled by what other people say about them. After that, if they’re in a category that is a popular target of damaging misinformation and misrepresentation, if they want to they can help by spending time side-by-side with some misguided people in some kind of community service.

- Do you have any more ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people?

Read their stories, and spend some time with some of them side-by-side in some kind of community service.

- Do you have any more ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?

Besides what I’ve already said, learn more about psychological abuse, and what to do and what not to do when we see it happening. A place to start might be friendly attention to people when they might be adversely affected, and openly disapproving of cruelty without arguing about it with people when they’re practicing it.

 

[osgart]

I’ll review and update my own answers to my questions.

- Do you have any more ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them?

They might need to stay away from some people, maybe even some kind-hearted people with the best intentions. There is training available to help people learn not to be demoralized and disabled by what other people say about them. After that, if they’re in a category that is a popular target of damaging misinformation and misrepresentation, if they want to they can help by spending time side-by-side with some misguided people in some kind of community service.

- Do you have any more ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people?

Read their stories, and spend some time with some of them side-by-side in some kind of community service.

- Do you have any more ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?

Besides what I’ve already said, learn more about psychological abuse, and what to do and what not to do when we see it happening. A place to start might be friendly attention to people when they might be adversely affected, and openly disapproving of cruelty without arguing about it with people when they’re practicing it.

I think the education system could teach values courses, and some even do that.

Community outreach programs might actually work.

A lot of victims might hold it inside and become so affected and not do anything about it. That's why I hate to see people devalue the family structure.

I used to endure some cruelty. And the worst thing you can do is hold it all inside. The second worst thing, even worse then that is go to people who are insensitive.

Humanity on the whole doesn't empower and give enough avenues of help for victims of psychological abuse. That's why it propagates.

You want to know somebody cares, and when somebody does lives are changed.

People do prey on isolated folks, and those that are weakened.

The second thing is to catch abusers and reeducate the ones doing it by giving consequences to the matter.

What is perceived as strength will ultimately prevail. Unfortunately what is perceived as strength is often no good for society.

And with technology, certain attitudes go viral.

I think the bottom line is to understand the mentality and attitudes of the abusers. They are emboldened by pack mentalities. They find strength in numbers instead of individual character.

Research is needed.

 

[halbhh]

Thank you.

Does anyone ekse have any more Ideas for people when they’re adversely affected by what other people say about them? Does anyone ekse have any more ideas for people when they see their beliefs being used against other people? Does anyone ekse have any more ideas for other people who are concerned about those issues?

When I'm attacked or see someone being attacked it's often useful to point out that the person doing the attack, accusation, or disparaging stuff will very often be projecting onto another person what they are actually doing themselves, and not admitting.

It's "The jaundiced eye sees all things yellow"....which actually is a pretty good help to say just by itself.

If you see someone attack someone else, you could often simply say "The jaundiced eye sees all things yellow" and you'd be pretty accurate usually!

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I answered longer (maybe well) before, but here's another thing, brief:

The Bible has nothing against gay people.

(I've read it cover to cover more than 1 time; there are a variety of sexual sins, but temperament itself -- mere inborn disposition -- is never a sin, of course. Being gay, or being gay in a relationship: not wrong according to the Bible, which doesn't even address this just like it doesn't address liking oranges better than apples.)

Those that are prejudiced against others, for race, or personality or gender, etc. -- anyone who is prejudiced is in danger from God, on the Day of Judgment, according to the Bible.

There are some variety of sexual sins spoken of in the bible, even just lusting after someone who isn't your spouse, even! But again, temperament isn't ever a sin, of course. There appear to be some sins you'd need to avoid doing if gay, just like for the rest of us who are not gay, but if you avoid those particular sins, that leaves about 1,000 or maybe 1 million things you can do as a gay person that are fine. So, this is the real picture.

The only people in profound serious, extreme danger on this whole topic/situation are those calling themselves Christians and hating (or having strong prejudice against) others. They are in extreme, very real danger, because they "have no excuse".

I actually think you are right. There are three references to homosexuality in the Bible : Deuteronomy saying something about "nen who lie with men as if women" being wrong, Sodom and Gomorrah the guys are talking about raping the visitors, and the section in 1 Corinthians about "men who have sex with men" (the notes on this sometimes translate again as "as with a woman"). So what exactly are we talking about here?

Well, the same thing that happens in prisons. I don't think I have to spell out how what goes on in prisons is different from consentual sex.

 

[halbhh]

I actually think you are right. There are three references to homosexuality in the Bible : Deuteronomy saying something about "nen who lie with men as if women" being wrong, Sodom and Gomorrah the guys are talking about raping the visitors, and the section in 1 Corinthians about "men who have sex with men" (the notes on this sometimes translate again as "as with a woman"). So what exactly are we talking about here?

Well, the same thing that happens in prisons. I don't think I have to spell out how what goes on in prisons is different from consentual sex.

In our church we emphasize that all people are sinners, and that all need to confess and rely on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

That doesn't single out any one specific sin as if more important. We don't preach especially against greed, or especially against lusting after others not your spouse, as if there are only a couple of sins that matter.

Instead, we welcome all sinners (and say that all are sinners), and we don't focus on trying to know what anyone's sins are, but we each focus on confessing our own. We think all of us are equally guilty until we confess and rely on Christ. We have times in services were we can confess, sometimes silently, sometimes together by reciting a common confession, and this is almost every Sunday, but I've no doubt many confess more often.

So, if you or anyone came to our church, we'd not be looking to imagine what sin you may have. We just assume we are all sinners relying on Grace, and confessing as we go along. It's not anyone's preaching (not anywhere, ever) that redeems people, but Christ Jesus that redeems people.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Sadly it’s obvious that you care far less about actually helping people who suffer from severe psychological pain than you do about expressing what you consider to be the ‘truths’ about their condition. Simply telling someone psychological pain can be deemed meaningless and ignored is absolutely worthless unless you ALSO help provide them with the TOOLS they’ll need to do that. In fact, telling them that WITHOUT also offering the tools they’ll require is not just worthless, but it can be harmful. Above you claim that you understand that developing the tools to ‘ignore the pain’ is long and involved process… yet the words you use suggest otherwise. When you say SIMPLY ignore it, you are suggesting that it should be a SIMPLE thing to do, and for you who was fortunate enough to have developed the tools to do so at a young age it IS relatively simple, but for someone WITHOUT such tools, it’s going to be one the most difficult challenges they’ve ever faced.


And no, you never used the specific words they are ‘choosing to be miserable’ and I never claimed that you did. What I did say is when you say things like SIMPLY ignore it you’re implying that it should be SIMPLE to do… and if someone doesn’t do something that’s so SIMPLE to help themselves, then they MUST just WANT to be miserable. Again, you’ve provided absolutely ZERO in the way of providing them with tools to deal with the issue, you are in essence telling them to just grow up and stop being so weak and childish.


I’ve spent most of the past 20 years working with people who have suffered severe psychological trauma and probably one of the worst challenges they have to face is people like you, people who claim that all they want to do is tell them the ‘truth’ about how simple it is to deal with psychological pain, but ultimately don’t care if the method they use for conveying the message causes additional damage to the person you say you want to help. When you write: In the end, if someone is hurt by me telling them that they don't have to accept pain caused by words, then tough. Freaking tough. They can be hurt all up one side of their brain and down the other for all I care. It becomes distressingly clear that you don’t really care if you help people or not. It would be fitting if someday you were to experience the debilitating psychological pain that these people experience so that you’d have some clue that dealing with physical pain is EASY compared to dealing with psychological pain, but I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.


So please… stop trying to ‘help’. It may serve to make you feel superior, but it’s only hurting people who are already suffering in ways you can’t even imagine.

You can think as you will of me, and/or my methods, my ways of dealing with people, or the things I share with them. People will know my freedom from stress by the way in which I conduct myself, and they will continue to ask how I do it, and I will continue to try and instruct them in the best ways that I feel I can. You see... your words also have almost zero effect, because I am completely fine with what I am, how I am that way, and the things that I engage in. If I weren't, I would change. But I am. You can continue to attempt to vilify me for what I am, but I would save your fingers the time and energy taken typing. For it is truly a complete and utter waste.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Wow... I have to wonder if you're confusing me with someone else, because I haven't even come close to claiming that there are words that MUST harm a person. All I've stated is that for people not fortunate enough to have been given the tools to deal with psychological pain that certain words CAN and often DO have a harmful effect. And if you honestly think that me acknowledging that there are some people for whom this is true is somehow convincing such people that they have no control over how words effect them then that's just additional evidence that you've had little or no contact with people who suffer in such a manner. In fact such people need to have their experiences acknowledged and validated. They KNOW that MOST people can just basically ignore words. They've encountered people like you all of their lives who tell them that it's all in their head and that all they have to do is SIMPLY ignore it... as if that's ALL they need to hear in order to magically gain the tools that you have been fortunate to possess all of your life. What they need is for people to acknowledge that the pain they experience is just as real to them as any physical pain and that CURRENTLY, without having been taught the tools required to deal with such psychological pain, that they really DON'T have any control over it. What they need to be told is that with lots of work it's possible to gain the tools needed so that they DO have some level of control. For MOST people like this such validation of what they are experiencing is NECESSARY before they can hope to start learning the methods you and I use to deal with their pain.

No one is ever going to hear me state that words are damaging. Admit that they can be? Sure. I'd be delusional if I didn't accept that people can be hurt by words, because I have seen it first hand, and experienced it myself.

You're not making any sense here. If you admit that words CAN be damaging then you'd have to admit that for those people for whom words CAN be damaging that for them these words ARE damaging. Claiming that something CAN be damaging. but then stating that it never actually IS damaging is ridiculous.

I can understand how it might be confusing. Yet if you look at my VERY FIRST POST, you will see that I recognize and admit that people are hurt by words, and that I will, on occasion, use this to my advantage. I have only positively stated that words don't have to be damaging. And yes, I used phrases like "words are a nothing" or "words are a trifle" and that the damage isn't really the same as physical impact, and that I person must necessarily accept the damage to themselves to be damaged. But those statements are not me stating that "words don't ever hurt." They are me attempting to frame the effect of words up how I see them, and to let people know that it is entirely possible to see them that way. If they know, that is the first step to even attempting to understand. And no... there will be no coddling from me, or "you poor dear." I never got any of that - and I truly believe that it is more a detriment to do those things than to give people the seed (or more) of the idea that words can be ineffectual. I had to learn how to deal with things in this way through such abuses myself. Again... I have been through the abuses - granted, I would never claim I have been through the worst that anyone has endured, but I do also know that I could have DECIDED to take a completely different tack toward accepting or rejecting those words used against me. I COULD HAVE let them affect me negatively. I COULD HAVE allowed them to permeate my mind and become part of what I think of myself. I COULD HAVE been damaged. But I DECIDED not to be. IT IS POSSIBLE. That is the message I give freely. If anyone cares to pursue it beyond that, I can attempt to describe the finer details, and if not... good for them. They can continue to build these things up in their own mind until they are consumed. It is not my responsibility.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Judge you? Lol

Don't feign innocence or wholesomeness here. What I suspect are glib lies here are not going to net you any points with me. You specifically asked a question attempting to frame me up as some kind of emotional sadist. Sure, you can say you "just asked a question," but I believe we both know there was more intent there then your little "Lol" above is letting on. If there wasn't, then it is too late anyway... that's what I saw, and that is how I will judge you. Do I think you have to care about that? Not in the slightest. But I do. It let's me know who I am dealing with (or even potentially dealing with) so that I might recognize better the intent and methods of those I deal with, if I deal with them again in the future.

 

[QuestioningMind]

You can think as you will of me, and/or my methods, my ways of dealing with people, or the things I share with them. People will know my freedom from stress by the way in which I conduct myself, and they will continue to ask how I do it, and I will continue to try and instruct them in the best ways that I feel I can. You see... your words also have almost zero effect, because I am completely fine with what I am, how I am that way, and the things that I engage in. If I weren't, I would change. But I am. You can continue to attempt to vilify me for what I am, but I would save your fingers the time and energy taken typing. For it is truly a complete and utter waste.

You’ve made it abundantly clear that attempting to educate you about anything is a complete and utter waste of time. Sadly you appear to have this phenomenal ego that gets in the way. You claim you want to help people, yet when it’s pointed out that for people who suffer from serious psychological pain your ‘help’ actually can do more harm than good, your response was… let me go and get the EXACT quote: then tough. Freaking tough. They can be hurt all up one side of their brain and down the other for all I care. So CLEARLY you’re FAR more concerned with protecting your fragile ego against the prospect of possibly being wrong than you are about the welfare of the people you claim you want to help. I mean seriously… we’re talking about someone who lives with almost unendurable psychological pain and you don’t care if your actions cause them to be ‘hurt up one side of the brain and down the other.’ What an ugly and horribly self-absorbed thing to say.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I can understand how it might be confusing. Yet if you look at my VERY FIRST POST, you will see that I recognize and admit that people are hurt by words, and that I will, on occasion, use this to my advantage. I have only positively stated that words don't have to be damaging. And yes, I used phrases like "words are a nothing" or "words are a trifle" and that the damage isn't really the same as physical impact, and that I person must necessarily accept the damage to themselves to be damaged. But those statements are not me stating that "words don't ever hurt." They are me attempting to frame the effect of words up how I see them, and to let people know that it is entirely possible to see them that way. If they know, that is the first step to even attempting to understand. And no... there will be no coddling from me, or "you poor dear." I never got any of that - and I truly believe that it is more a detriment to do those things than to give people the seed (or more) of the idea that words can be ineffectual. I had to learn how to deal with things in this way through such abuses myself. Again... I have been through the abuses - granted, I would never claim I have been through the worst that anyone has endured, but I do also know that I could have DECIDED to take a completely different tack toward accepting or rejecting those words used against me. I COULD HAVE let them affect me negatively. I COULD HAVE allowed them to permeate my mind and become part of what I think of myself. I COULD HAVE been damaged. But I DECIDED not to be. IT IS POSSIBLE. That is the message I give freely. If anyone cares to pursue it beyond that, I can attempt to describe the finer details, and if not... good for them. They can continue to build these things up in their own mind until they are consumed. It is not my responsibility.

Again... I have been through the abuses - granted, I would never claim I have been through the worst that anyone has endured, but I do also know that I could have DECIDED to take a completely different tack toward accepting or rejecting those words used against me. I COULD HAVE let them affect me negatively. I COULD HAVE allowed them to permeate my mind and become part of what I think of myself. I COULD HAVE been damaged. But I DECIDED not to be. IT IS POSSIBLE.

Here AGAIN you readily admit that you personally haven’t endured the level of abuses that other people have been subjected to, yet your phenomenal ego tells you that if YOU were ever so fortunate to have been given the tools needed to be able to DECIDE to NOT let mere words affect you negatively then EVERYONE –regardless of how different their life experiences have been from yours – should be able to do so as well.

Yes you COULD have been let them affect you negatively, you COULD have let them permeate your mind, but you DECIDED not to let them. WHY did you make such a decision? Because YOU were LUCKY enough to have been given the tools needed to MAKE SUCH A DECISION. You sadly don’t have even the slightest clue what a wonderful GIFT the tools you received are. It gave you the opportunity to simply DECIDE not to do so. Not everyone was as wonderfully fortunate as YOU. SOME people can’t do it alone. SOME people need help developing the tools you’re so lucky to already possess. And the first step in getting that help is acknowledging that they have a problem…a problem that most people like you are fortunate enough not to suffer from. What they DON’T need is people telling them: Just DECIDE to stop letting it bother you. I did it, why can’t you?


You remind me of someone who occasionally over indulged in alcohol while in college then decided to quit lecturing someone who suffers from serious alcoholism. Telling them to just decide to quit! I did it, so that means you can just decide to stop as well. And of course, if you don’t just decide to quit then it must mean you don’t really want to. And while there may be some mild alcoholics who are capable of developing the tools to make that decision on their own, there are a great deal of them who need help. They need some sort of a program to help them develop the tools needed to be able to make that decision. If you REALLY want to help such a person the best thing to do would be to acknowledge that even though YOU were able to simply DECIDE to quit with relative ease, that THEY might be different and that THEY might not have to tools to just DECIDE to quit. That maybe THEY might need someone to help them develop such skills. That would be a FAR more helpful thing to say than to keep telling them: JUST STOP and having them continue to fail for years to come.

 

[Ayjaydee]

Don't feign innocence or wholesomeness here. What I suspect are glib lies here are not going to net you any points with me. You specifically asked a question attempting to frame me up as some kind of emotional sadist. Sure, you can say you "just asked a question," but I believe we both know there was more intent there then your little "Lol" above is letting on. If there wasn't, then it is too late anyway... that's what I saw, and that is how I will judge youI]. Do I think you have to care about that? Not in the slightest. But I do. It let's me know who I am dealing with (or even potentially dealing with) so that I might recognize better the intent and methods of those I deal with, if I deal with them again in the future.

Too late, I know who and what you are. I suppose it takes a judgement call to make the decision. Originally I was truly curious because I thought I must be misinterpreting what I thought I saw you say. I see I wasnt. I'm satisfied.

 

[Jim]

Again, I want to invite people who want to help reduce and counteract the harmfulness of some behavior in Internet discussions to read and post in this thread: Ideas for reducing and counteracting effects of psychological abuse

Also, read up on gaslighting. it happens a lot in internet discussions about toxic behavior in Internet discussions.

I think that my title for this this thread is misleading. I don’t think that people are hurt by other people’s beliefs. I think that they can be hurt and sometimes permanently damaged by some ways that people talk about their beliefs and views. One way that happens is when people are using their beliefs and views to validate their prejudices against some group or category of people, for example against gays or against conservative Christians. People who see themselves as being in some group or category that is disparaged or vilified in popular thinking can be permanently damaged and disabled by that. Gaslighting, saying or insinuating that that the problem is all in them, makes it worse. I also think that personal attacks against perceived offenders make it worse. People who want to educate others need to start by educating themselves.

 

[Jim]

I think that personal attacks against people when they’re justifying and flaunting their abuse, and gaslighting, give them more of a platform, and more reasons, to continue doing all that.

 

[Jim]

I think there are different kinds of psychologically harmful behavior that might need to be considered separately. What I was thinking of in this thread was popular ways of thinking that devalue some groups or categories of people. For example that could be race categories, nationalities, political identities, or categories defined by what people believe and don’t believe.

Some of the discussion here has been about some different kinds of behavior that might be more closely related to psychological abuse, which I’ve been discussing in another thread. It’s about personal attacks and other cruelty against people individually, which people do consciously and intentionally sometimes, and sometimes not. I’ll be posting all my ideas about that in the other thread, and I hope other people will too.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You’ve made it abundantly clear that attempting to educate you about anything is a complete and utter waste of time. Sadly you appear to have this phenomenal ego that gets in the way. You claim you want to help people, yet when it’s pointed out that for people who suffer from serious psychological pain your ‘help’ actually can do more harm than good, your response was… let me go and get the EXACT quote: then tough. Freaking tough. They can be hurt all up one side of their brain and down the other for all I care. So CLEARLY you’re FAR more concerned with protecting your fragile ego against the prospect of possibly being wrong than you are about the welfare of the people you claim you want to help. I mean seriously… we’re talking about someone who lives with almost unendurable psychological pain and you don’t care if your actions cause them to be ‘hurt up one side of the brain and down the other.’ What an ugly and horribly self-absorbed thing to say.

And they who are so suffering will not even entertain the notion of what I might have to offer them. It's not my problem. I am not actively trying to trivialize their emotional pain so much as try and inform them that it can be trivialized. Again - you can't argue against that point. You can't. You have nothing in your arsenal except to keep reiterating that these people are suffering... and yet it is needless suffering. Completely needless.

You can guess at the level of me ego, tell me that my words do more harm than good without any actual support for those claims, etc. You're the one doing no good here in my eyes. Good luck getting people out of their funks by telling them it is perfectly natural to keep feeling psychological distress at the words of others. I am sure you're having loads of success with that.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Because YOU were LUCKY enough to have been given the tools needed to MAKE SUCH A DECISION. You sadly don’t have even the slightest clue what a wonderful GIFT the tools you received are. It gave you the opportunity to simply DECIDE not to do so. Not everyone was as wonderfully fortunate as YOU. SOME people can’t do it alone. SOME people need help developing the tools you’re so lucky to already possess. And the first step in getting that help is acknowledging that they have a problem…a problem that most people like you are fortunate enough not to suffer from. What they DON’T need is people telling them: Just DECIDE to stop letting it bother you. I did it, why can’t you?

I never once worded any of my statements as "I did it, why can't you?" You just love to put words in my mouth and demonize the message I have to offer. Why is that? Why can't you stand the fact that someone might like to share the ideas and rationalizations that may lead to being able to discard hurtful words like so much dryer lint? Note: this is not me saying that someone's pain is "dryer lint." Do you get that? If you can't, then you are no better at thinking than those people who would dismiss my claims outright about being able to dismiss words without further ado - and instead suffer even more greatly because of my words because they think I am trivializing their pain - and likely obviously thinking that their psychological suffering must have been SO MUCH GREATER than my own. THAT, my friend, is ego. You keep accusing me of having this huge ego... whatever. As far as I can see you are running in circles.

If you REALLY want to help such a person the best thing to do would be to acknowledge that even though YOU were able to simply DECIDE to quit with relative ease, that THEY might be different and that THEY might not have to tools to just DECIDE to quit. That maybe THEY might need someone to help them develop such skills. That would be a FAR more helpful thing to say than to keep telling them: JUST STOP and having them continue to fail for years to come.

From personal experience, alcoholics also often let their egos get in the way of listening to any actual advice or criticism of their decisions. Decisions that even they lament put them in a bad way both physically and psychologically. My own brother is an alcoholic. And do you know? I never tell him he shouldn't have a drink, that he should be doing things differently, etc. I've seen my parents take that tack and he only ever gets pissed off at them, claims they couldn't possibly understand, and will then turn around and say he wishes he could just stop. I attempt to treat him only as my brother, let him know I am here whenever he needs to talk, etc. And I make our conversations about philosophical meanderings, try and give him different perspective on things in general... always steering clear of the alcohol subject - because it is a sore spot unless he is "on the wagon." (which he is at the moment, by the way). But in the end, this is still my attempting to wrestle him out from under the burdens he puts on himself. I do so by attempting to get him to change his perspective on the things he comes in contact with that trouble him so. Much as I have advocated for in this thread with people and their acceptance or rejection of words. People like you, however, want to just grant people all their pain, pat their heads gently, and tell them "it isn't your fault - take all the time you need - words DO hurt, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise." That's obviously a very rough paraphrasing of what I imagine your message to them must be like. What a waste. It is troubling that there are so many like you in that regard as well.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Too late, I know who and what you are. I suppose it takes a judgement call to make the decision. Originally I was truly curious because I thought I must be misinterpreting what I thought I saw you say. I see I wasnt. I'm satisfied.

Sure sure. You're one of those judgmental sorts who admonishes everyone else for their judgments. All the while deluding yourself into thinking you are pristine and perfect. I admit to my judgments - easily. I make them, like everyone else does... I just don't think their is much of anything wrong with the vast majority of them. It really can't be done without. People like to pretend they are above it. Like you. It's pretty hilarious to watch.

 

[Ayjaydee]

Sure sure. You're one of those judgmental sorts who admonishes everyone else for their judgments. All the while deluding yourself into thinking you are pristine and perfect. I admit to my judgments - easily. I make them, like everyone else does... I just don't think their is much of anything wrong with the vast majority of them. It really can't be done without. People like to pretend they are above it. Like you. It's pretty hilarious to watch.

I said it was a judgement call. I could have asked the opposite. But you answered and my first impression was correct. I'm glad I asked. It's going to save time and energy in the future.