What makes a Hindu a Hindu - Version 2

[atanu]

Thanks Jaya.

I hope Vinayaka and others will not take offence, if a perspective from the other side is placed here.

This is what happened when I went with the list to Mira Bai (of course in my mind). One cannot doubt that Bai is greatest of the Hindus. She saw the list, studied and smiled, remarking "What a beautiful list, so thorough. Who has made it?", She returned the list. I told her about my friend and asked her whether Bai would like to keep the list .. just in case? She smiled, got up and started dancing "I have Kanha. Kanha is joy joy joy. I have Kanha. Kanha is love love love. I have Kanha. Kanha is song song song."

She now seemed lost. I silently moved out.

I then took the list to Shri Ramana, my Guru. His Hinduism, also possibly cannot be questioned (I am not sure, however). He asked "What is this?" I said "A checklist to determine whether one is Hindu or not?". He gave back the list, saying "Forget all this. Just find out who that it is who wants to determine whether one is Hindu or not?". I tried to say a few more things as how in samsara the list is very useful. And then He seemed to become angry. He said "What is true of samsara? It is all changing dream events. Why fix any categories? Just find who wants to enumerate and fix things up." And He fell silent and did not take questions any more. I returned.

Aum

 

[zenzero]

Friend atanu,

if a perspective from the other side is placed here.

It is just from the other side of your own mind!

Personal understanding IS at all times an open ended way of life where everyone travels on his own path but is reminded at all times to do so consciously.

Love & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend atanu,

Of course. Did you read?

Reading comes before understanding which happened besides have you understood what it means when mentioned that Hinduism is an open ended way of life and everyone is free to follow what he/she is comfortable with and doing so CONSCIOUSLY.

Love & rgds

 

[Vinayaka]

Friend atanu,

Reading comes before understanding which happened besides have you understood what it means when mentioned that Hinduism is an open ended way of life and everyone is free to follow what he/she is comfortable with and doing so CONSCIOUSLY.

Love & rgds

Sounds like we Hindus have no morals at all and are free to do whatever the heck we want to, regardless of outcome, ethical guidelines, a moral compass, or whatever.

Most Hindus, I believe, follow some sorts of moral code, or have a conscience. At least I sure hope so.

 

[Maya3]

Sounds like we Hindus have no morals at all and are free to do whatever the heck we want to, regardless of outcome, ethical guidelines, a moral compass, or whatever.

Most Hindus, I believe, follow some sorts of moral code, or have a conscience. At least I sure hope so.

Ahimsa is the biggest part of that I think.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

Ahimsa is the biggest part of that I think.

Maya

I totally agree.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Vinayaka,

Sounds like we Hindus have no morals at all and are free to do whatever the heck we want to, regardless of outcome, ethical guidelines, a moral compass, or whatever.
Most Hindus, I believe, follow some sorts of moral code, or have a conscience. At least I sure hope so.

Morals, behaviour etc. comes from uncontrolled minds and paths /ways are meant to guide our minds in the right direction or towards enlightenment.
Since we have such uncontrolled minds we have assembled on RF to discuss issues including this one and if one is born perfect than all paths/ways/religions are of no use to such person/s.

Love & rgds

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I would like to clarify and add to this conversation of what i mean by "free for all", in the context of Hinduism.

To me Hinduism is "free for all" in the sense that anyone can practice and have Hindu beliefs because there are no major restrictions to join the Hindu community (as in race, gender, language, cultural ect ect), there is no major conversion rituals to officially initiate someone into the Hindu fold (Shuddhi by Arya Samaj is not same as covert but more like welcome back) and there is no punishment for leaving the Hindu fold as well. There are so many different spiritual, philosophical, traditional, ritual, textual, worship and even cultural variations in Hinduism that i believe any individual who is attracted towards Hinduism and any of its different forms can find a particular area that fits in with their current mind set.

In saying that, once a individual accepts the Hindu view, there are within Hinduism and its many "arms and limbs" specific codes of conduct, and there is a general code of conduct which is embodied in the word "Dharmah" which is applicable to all Hindus in my opinion, Dharmah is applicable from a individual level to a universal level, this Dharmah includes respect for all living beings. So a person can be a Hindu in view but conduct their life in a way that could be "ADharmah", this does not mean a person is no longer Hindu, but is just a bad or ignorant individual. This "ADharmah", is a violation of the principal code of being a Hindu, and this is left to the individual to realize that they have gone against Dharmah of being Hindu.

What is not Adharmah is e.g; Worshiping Murugan and not worshiping Krishna.

What is ADharmah is e.g; worshiping Murugan but in the same line disrespecting, hating Krishna and those who worship him.

Because this will violate the principal of respect and Ahimsa in Dharmah.

So in my view Hinduism is "Free for all" people in practice, philosophy and belief ect, but not all people are Hindus and not all practices, Philosophy and beliefs are considered or can be Hindu in nature, Hinduism does not advise that Hinduism is a universal religion, it does not do this because it teaches to recognizes and respect that there are many other alternate world views.

Hopefully i have clarified my self as it is just hard to differentiate between Dharmah and Hinduism for me as i don't consider them as being vastly different, apologies for any confusion.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I would like to add another point to the "What makes a Hindu a Hindu", question.

In my view (i call it the Hindu view), i view this entire existence as a infinite eternal thing (Purusha) within this infinite eternal thing there are finite non-eternal things, these finite things do not exist separate from the complete infinite eternal thing but are within it as parts of it, these finite things are interrelated to each other and the collection of these things are the infinite eternal thing (Purusha) as the whole and cannot be separated from it as there is nothing other then this infinite eternal thing (Purusha).

In more simpler word, i think what makes a Hindu a Hindu is the view that there is a infinite diversity in the unity of existence.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sounds like we Hindus have no morals at all and are free to do whatever the heck we want to, regardless of outcome, ethical guidelines, a moral compass, or whatever. Most Hindus, I believe, follow some sorts of moral code, or have a conscience. At least I sure hope so.

All Hindus have to go by 'dharma' whatever their other beliefs be and have to follow it strictly. We can't do 'whatever heck we want to'.

 

[atanu]

I hope Vinayaka and others will not take offence, if a perspective from the other side is placed here.

This is what happened when I went with the list to Mira Bai (of course in my mind). ......

Aum

Friend atanu,
It is just from the other side of your own mind!....
Love & rgds

Yes. The imaginary scenarios were mental imaginations only. Kindly see the blue highlighted part. I cannot yet think and write using the 'No-Mind'. Possibly, you can?

Friend atanu,
.... that Hinduism is an open ended way of life and everyone is free to follow what he/she is comfortable with and doing so CONSCIOUSLY.
Love & rgds

I have four observations:

1. Actually, even 'Being Conscious of every act' is not required in the ultimate sense, because Shri Krishna says "You are not the doer" and "Just surrender". Nothing is required actually, if one surrenders the ego self to Ishwara/Atman. Yet we all do something or other beacuse we are still the doers.

2. 'Always Being Conscious' (or the Mindfulness) is the teaching of Gita of being Stitha Prajnana. If you read the two imaginary stories on Meera Bai and Shri Ramana, you may see the same : To ever be stitha Prajnana. But again, how many are really able to be Stitha Prajnana?

To always be mindful/conscious/stitha prajnana is the highest teaching, mostly useful for advanced yogis. For such, there is no requirement for any regimen or any list. One who always abides in the Heart/Atman/Bhagawan has no regimen to follow. Things happen automatically. We cannot imagine that the List can be applied to Meera Bai to determine whether she was a Sanatani Dharmist or not. It will be the case of a small ego trying to judge the ocean.

3. Given the above situation, for Hindus, Karma/Bhakti/Jnana paths are suggested in Gita. In Yoga, the Yama-Niyama, which is common to all of Hinduism, is the primary requirement. It is impossible to attain higher levels of yoga, such as a status of Stitha Prajnana, without first mastering the basic steps of the Yama-Niyama. I do not think that any master will contradict this.

4. As a summary, I will add the following. It is held that the Phenomenal Universe is comprised in Three steps of Vishnu that are akin to our Deep Sleep, Dream, and Waking states. A Guru alone may know the real requirement of a Seeker. And depending on the status of the Seeker's mind, may prescribe an appropriate Path and Practice. So, reducing the whole of Hinduism into a single prescription is neither recommended and nor desirable.

Love and Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

1. Actually, even 'Being Conscious' is not required in the ultimate sense, because Shri Krishna says "You are not the doer" and "Just surrender". Nothing is required actually, if one surrenders the ego self to Ishwara/Atman. Yet we all do something or other beacuse we are still the doers.: We are not the doers. We are 'nimittas' as Krishna said. "nimitta-mātram bhava savya-sācin" BG 11.33

2. 'Always Being Conscious' (or the Mindfulness) is the teaching of Gita of being Stitha Prajnana. If you read the two imaginary stories on Meera Bai and Shri Ramana, you may see the same : To ever be stitha Prajnana. But again, how many are really able to be Stitha Prajnana?: Both were "Stitha prajnas" in their own different ways. They followed what their 'prajna' said. What the 'prajna' of different people will say will depend on their 'gunas'. Some may have more 'Sattva', some may have more 'Rajas', or even 'Tamas' (tantrics and aghories).

3. Given the above situation, for Hindus, Karma/Bhakti/Jnana paths are suggested in Gita. In Yoga, the Yama-Niyama, which is common to all of Hinduism, is the primary requirement. It is impossible to attain higher levels of yoga, such as a status of Stitha Prajnana, without first mastering the basic steps of the Yama-Niyama. I do not think that any master will contradict this.: No contradiction with this (though these may vary according to 'situations' and 'matas', a grihasha will not follow 'non-sensuality', most of our rishis were married. An advaitist may not believe in existence of God and might not follow 'ishwara pranidhana').

4. As a summary, I will add the following. It is held that the Phenomenal Universe is comprised in Three steps of Vishnu that are akin to our Deep Sleep, Dream, and Waking states. A Guru alone may know the real requirement of a Seeker. And depending on the status of the Seeker's mind, may prescribe an appropriate Path and Practice. So, reducing the whole of Hinduism into a single prescription is neither recommended and nor desirable.: Yes, I fully agree with this. It is your view. It is not necessary for me to agree with this. You are welcome to it.

 

[zenzero]

Friend atanu,

Guess we are more near to common understanding than before however if we keep our differences away as we are mostly doing we shall close any gaps remaining.

Frankly speaking though am yet to reach anywhere there but do understand that we have no role to play or as you mentioned

Shri Krishna says "You are not the doer" and "Just surrender". Nothing is required actually, if one surrenders the ego self to Ishwara/Atman. Yet we all do something or other beacuse we are still the doers.

Personal understanding is that we are not ven involved in breathing when breath is life the 'prana' that comes in and goes out of a body happens without the body's wish; so are we the doer?
when the doer is not there how can we discuss about what is the doer's path? or who are we to discuss anything?

Stitha Prajnana

The ultimate when one is neither this or that. Total VOID the mind is no mind. Yes personally such moments are very rare but it does happen but only for split seconds and only that provides enough to carry on for another dose. It acts like a drug and like an addict one is single minded for the next split second of voidness of the mind.

yes, if there is a guru then their is a chela or else there is neither a guru nor a chela as its the great void and towards that even naming it or labelling it is incorrect and even if named it showed not be fixed but flexible enough to be seen from any angle and the voidness felt.

Love & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend Vinayaka,

Explaining as have understood:
Firstly we have a label called dharma and sanatan stands for eternal; so all those huamns following dharma of any kind is a follower of sanatan dharma.
The other side of dharma is adharma and those who do not follow any types of dharma are not in the fold in general but through evolution and other means adharmis too slowly start becoming conscious and start following the dharma.
It is exactly these types of people Jesus brought the fold of dharma.
Where did adharmis come from. Humans have evolved from a single cell through life in water, plants animals etc but the last form was animal and since the mind of animals is not developed to the extent where they are conscious of consciousness itself humans are said to be the last form of evolution which can evolve consciously to merge with the VOID from which all forms come from. However not all humans are conscious of their consciousness in their first human birth and so they have animistic instincts in them making them adharmis but we cannot shut them off, they too are part of that VOID and they too will evolve to reach that VOID one day. It is not dharmic to think and speak in any negative manner for anyone but we find such adharmas even amongst those who are conscious of the VOID and its significance. Such is life and each individual life is in its own unique time/space zone which is only connected through THAT VOID with everything else.

All that had mentioned is that dharma is OPEN-ENDED where every individual can practise dharma or a way of life that individual is comfortable with and that is his dharma. That dharma could be followed by millions of others but still too a uniqueness will remain in his own way of practising that due to his own place in the time/space zone.

Do not worry if you understand or do not, do write your views and we shall develop our meeting point for an understanding by and by and for sure as we are after all have the same roots; VOID.

Love & rgds

 

[ShivaFan]

Friend Sshiva Fan,

Would be glad if you could share the benefits of having prayed for so many years.

Love & rgds

Namaste Zenzero

As you can see I've been a bit busy, but to answer your question about prayers, between you and me, the benefits of prayer (and in a sense what I pray for) in truth I don't "pray" a lot exactly but rather use self "mind control", e.g. control pain if needed e.g. Hanuman, control the anarchy that tries to control your actions e.g. Shiva, control wanting too many things by simply appreciating the simple things e.g. Annapurna, control fear of the future so it does not trap you into a "small zone" e.g. Ganapati, control boredom from taking you the wrong path e,g. Muruga, and so on (sorry don't mean to bore you). You notice the word "control" but it is about experience, in life and Hinduism, that experiencing Hinduism and the adventure of it, this builds and is the ability to engage fully in life that actually comes about by "self-control".

So no, actually I do not pray to "Gods" for "things", I use the methods to engage in self "mind control". The mind I speak of is not the brain.

I have Indian-born Hindu relatives all about me. I have been to India so many times it is a second home. There is one thing that IS changing, WILL change, and that is the end and I do pray for that, the end of Hindus denying fellow Hindus their right to be a Hindu which is a right of all beings. In my life, besides this "urge" to "create" by the means of "adventure", for some reason the "Gods" are often "bothering me" and saying "speak up" and "this must and will change". So while I do not pray per say, when I do pray, this is what I pray for.

Love and regards to YOU too!

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[zenzero]

Friend ShivaFan,

Thank you for sharing.
Interesting that we are BEING which is a present tense not had been nor will be just HERE-NOW as Being cause we are always in the MIDDLE of the journey. If the journey would have been complete the label used would be different but as normal being we are somewhere in the middle and we are moving/travelling towards the end of our journey and it is never to late to start towards the end of the journey and as they say 'The beginging is an end in itself'. those who have started the journey would mean that somewhere they are now conscious of consciousness and now they are on the path of dharma as till then they did not set foot on dharma so the label would be Adharma as they are not on the journey consciously in other words evolving conciously and evolving unconsciously. Mind it God or Consciousness is in everything including every being be they concious or not and so the conscious ones on the path of dharma needs to be compassionate about everyone and not discriminate between anyone as a discriminating mind exposes a adharmic mind.

Since now you have started the journey consciously and is on the path of dharma wish you all the best and may consciousness guide you on your path.

Love & rgds

 

[Vinayaka]

So this thread is now officially derailed as well. I shan't be making a third one.

But I did find reading 'What's a Jew?" in the Jewish DIR mildly encouraging, as it seems we're not the only ones who have troubles defining ourselves. I can't post there, but thanks brothers, it's still a nice read. I gave you a few frubals.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

So this thread is now officially derailed as well. I shan't be making a third one.

It's actually kind of embarrassing now. I'm sitting here reading all this bickering from members of what I have mostly experienced as a mild, "live-and-let-live" faith and wondering what the heck I'm doing wrong. Come on guys. We're better than petty differences and disagreements. Don't you guys find the nit-picking exhausting? Because I"m tired just thinking about it.

I do love you all, but come on now.

:camp:

 

[Poeticus]

It's actually kind of embarrassing now. I'm sitting here reading all this bickering from members of what I have mostly experienced as a mild, "live-and-let-live" faith and wondering what the heck I'm doing wrong. Come on guys. We're better than petty differences and disagreements. Don't you guys find the nit-picking exhausting? Because I"m tired just thinking about it.

I do love you all, but come on now.

:camp:

I like hip-hop.​

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

I like hip-hop.​

Shun the non-believer!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRB8Jor8tPs