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What is wrong with idol worship?
- Thread starter Surya Deva
- Start date
Darkwater
Well-Known Member
Beings of greater duration reveal themselves to us all the time,every breath is sacred..........the fault merely comes in stupid labels applied by human,our rationale & explanations.......
Sometimes our own truths resonate with higher truths,old labels to be tried & proved(or not).
As energy never dies,we do not actually create anything.....sometimes we attune to a higher power,re-assemble old resonations pull ancient beautiful knowledge/light back together....then you acheive the syphon system,compounded perfectly where everything you do is green or art.
.lava
Veteran Member
truth is i am not trying to win or lose. gain and loss are both personal. yes, it is an individual journey.
10:44 Surely Allah does not do any injustice to men, but men are unjust to themselves.
.
Surya Deva
Well-Known Member
Friends, let us not come down too hard on Heneni. I can see what she is trying to say: if we worship worthless things, like dead matter, then we too are making ourselves worthless. A Hindu Swami I respect a lot, Swami Dayananda Saraswati who founded the Arya Samaj was also vehemently against idol worship and used a similar argument that Heneni has. But we Hindus are encouraged to think freely for ourselves and come to our own judgements. While I agree with Swami Dayananda and Heneni that we indeed are bringing our level of consciousness down by worshipping what essentially is dead matter, it is not inherently inferior to mechnically praying to a mental concept, they are both according to Swami Dayananda and myself lower forms of worship and they should be transcended.
Please permit me to say something controversial. The vast majority of Muslims and Christians I come across who pray regularly do not seem anymore enlightened, happier or noble than people who don't pray. In fact, on the contrary, they seem to be lesser rational and often contradict themselves in their thoughts and actions. I had a friend who was a very devout Christian, he was so devout he treated my religion like it belonged to Satan, told me I was going to hell quite smugly, and he himself was a paranoid wreck, who violently use to shout at Satan in his bedroom. Now he is in mental care. More moderate Christians I use to work with attended mass regularly, listened to Gospel regularly, were corrupt people and quite dim. I mean considering the pope John Paul 2 himself was a fanatic who publically made statements like, "I want to see all Asia converted to Christians using the older ways of conversion(read colonialism)" it makes you wonder to the efficacy of their prayers.
Similar criticism can be levelled at Muslims. If devout Muslims, who live a complete and pure Muslim life are living under Sharia law and some of them who are completely fundamentalist are engaged in terrorism, then it makes you wonder just how well are their prayers working for themselves.
I am not saying my religion is beyond repoach. It is also full of people who pray and worship but are actually corrupt to the core. That is because they are superficial Hindus. But I know one thing for sure, the Hindus that are learned and are devoted to a true Hindu life are extraordinary people. They are noble, acutely intellectual, highly articulate, warm, very open-minded, worthy of reverence. They end up being honoured with all kinds of prestigious accloades like honoury degrees, noble prizes, international awards and they contribute to real change. Whatever they are doing is working. Do not believe me? Read up on such people like Swami Vivekananda, Swami Ramakrishna, Swami Yoganda, Swami Sivananda and Krishnanada, Ramana Maharishi, Sri Aurobindo.
So before Muslims and Christians criticise others on Idol-worship, saying it doesn't work, I think they need to take a very long, honest and hard look at themselves, at their history, at their representatives and subject themselves to the same criticism - does it work?
I know at least when I apply the same criticms to Hinduism that whatever they are doing is working. I don't know about others, but I would rather try something that works than that which doesn't.
Please permit me to say something controversial. The vast majority of Muslims and Christians I come across who pray regularly do not seem anymore enlightened, happier or noble than people who don't pray. In fact, on the contrary, they seem to be lesser rational and often contradict themselves in their thoughts and actions. I had a friend who was a very devout Christian, he was so devout he treated my religion like it belonged to Satan, told me I was going to hell quite smugly, and he himself was a paranoid wreck, who violently use to shout at Satan in his bedroom. Now he is in mental care. More moderate Christians I use to work with attended mass regularly, listened to Gospel regularly, were corrupt people and quite dim. I mean considering the pope John Paul 2 himself was a fanatic who publically made statements like, "I want to see all Asia converted to Christians using the older ways of conversion(read colonialism)" it makes you wonder to the efficacy of their prayers.
Similar criticism can be levelled at Muslims. If devout Muslims, who live a complete and pure Muslim life are living under Sharia law and some of them who are completely fundamentalist are engaged in terrorism, then it makes you wonder just how well are their prayers working for themselves.
I am not saying my religion is beyond repoach. It is also full of people who pray and worship but are actually corrupt to the core. That is because they are superficial Hindus. But I know one thing for sure, the Hindus that are learned and are devoted to a true Hindu life are extraordinary people. They are noble, acutely intellectual, highly articulate, warm, very open-minded, worthy of reverence. They end up being honoured with all kinds of prestigious accloades like honoury degrees, noble prizes, international awards and they contribute to real change. Whatever they are doing is working. Do not believe me? Read up on such people like Swami Vivekananda, Swami Ramakrishna, Swami Yoganda, Swami Sivananda and Krishnanada, Ramana Maharishi, Sri Aurobindo.
So before Muslims and Christians criticise others on Idol-worship, saying it doesn't work, I think they need to take a very long, honest and hard look at themselves, at their history, at their representatives and subject themselves to the same criticism - does it work?
I know at least when I apply the same criticms to Hinduism that whatever they are doing is working. I don't know about others, but I would rather try something that works than that which doesn't.
Last edited by a moderator:
.lava
Veteran Member
pretty much off topic but i should say those who's engaged in terrorism do not know Islam. even a robot could do the exact moves of salaat or your computer can give voice to verses of Qur'an but you know, they are machines.
btw, i don't have problem with what Heneni says
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blackout
Violet.
Well I was hurt.
I put up a whole post,
showing and explaining my (totem) I-doll.
Sharing something of DEEP meaning
and treasured worth ....
And was basically told by someone
I have considered a friend,
and have stood up for,
that she (Ultra) was worthless,
and so was I (Violet).
It just sucks to think that your friends judge you as worthless.
(and over a piece of foam laytex at that)
Andy said...
I know Hen's intent was not to be hurtful.
So maybe I should just let it go at that.
I put up a whole post,
showing and explaining my (totem) I-doll.
Sharing something of DEEP meaning
and treasured worth ....
And was basically told by someone
I have considered a friend,
and have stood up for,
that she (Ultra) was worthless,
and so was I (Violet).
It just sucks to think that your friends judge you as worthless.
(and over a piece of foam laytex at that)
Andy said...
and perhaps you are right.
I know Hen's intent was not to be hurtful.
So maybe I should just let it go at that.
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Heneni
Miss Independent
I'm not sure if you are sarcastic about heneni not hurting you, but just incase you have been hurt by me...im really sorry.
I dont even think god said that to hurt anybody, but rather to make them think a little about who they admire,trust and love.
But alas...if i have hurt you im sorry.
I'll go over the post you said you posted about idols ....i missed it.
I dont even think god said that to hurt anybody, but rather to make them think a little about who they admire,trust and love.
But alas...if i have hurt you im sorry.
I'll go over the post you said you posted about idols ....i missed it.
want to be hindu
Member
I think this story tells the truth about idol worship better then any philosophical argument
Swami Vivekananda has explained the truth of idol or image worship most remarkably:
"During the days of his wanderings, the Swami was once questioned by the Maharaja of the State of Ahwar, India, on idol worship. The Maharaja said he had no faith in idol worship and that he could not worship wood, stone or earth. Looking around , Swami Vivekananda's eyes alighted upon a picture of the Maharaja. Taking it down he asked the courtiers to spit upon it. Shocked at the request, they they declined to do it. Swami Vivekananda turning to the Maharaja said, "The picture has the likeness of you. It brings you to their minds and they naturally look upon it with respect. In the same way, the image in the temple brings to the mind of the devotees their chosen aspect of God. They do not worship the wood, stone or earth of which the deity is made from. The idol remains an idol but the worship goes to the Lord".
He further says, "A symbol is absolutely indispensable for fixing the mind. The mind wants a prop to lean upon. It cannot have a conception of the Absolute in the initial stages. Without the help of some external aid, in the initial stages, the mind cannot be centralized. The people of the whole world, save a few Yogis and Vedantins, are all worshipers of idols. They keep some image or other in the mind".
http://www.indianheartbeat.20m.com/PgImageWorship.html
Swami Vivekananda is considered one of the great religious figures of the late 19th & early 20th century.
Swami Vivekananda has explained the truth of idol or image worship most remarkably:
"During the days of his wanderings, the Swami was once questioned by the Maharaja of the State of Ahwar, India, on idol worship. The Maharaja said he had no faith in idol worship and that he could not worship wood, stone or earth. Looking around , Swami Vivekananda's eyes alighted upon a picture of the Maharaja. Taking it down he asked the courtiers to spit upon it. Shocked at the request, they they declined to do it. Swami Vivekananda turning to the Maharaja said, "The picture has the likeness of you. It brings you to their minds and they naturally look upon it with respect. In the same way, the image in the temple brings to the mind of the devotees their chosen aspect of God. They do not worship the wood, stone or earth of which the deity is made from. The idol remains an idol but the worship goes to the Lord".
He further says, "A symbol is absolutely indispensable for fixing the mind. The mind wants a prop to lean upon. It cannot have a conception of the Absolute in the initial stages. Without the help of some external aid, in the initial stages, the mind cannot be centralized. The people of the whole world, save a few Yogis and Vedantins, are all worshipers of idols. They keep some image or other in the mind".
http://www.indianheartbeat.20m.com/PgImageWorship.html
Swami Vivekananda is considered one of the great religious figures of the late 19th & early 20th century.
blackout
Violet.
What?!?
You want me to "make up" with my Self?
Well that sounds rather fun!
A little Black lip stick...
A little Purple nailpolish...
Die those bleached hairs purple....
Oh Ultra Darling ! You look absolutley FAB!
Why! You look just like me!
Simply marvelous!
Sexy personified.
Oh thank you Violet....
too true... too true...... :flirt:
Now shall we kiss? :drool:
MMmmmmmmmmmmm......
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want to be hindu
Member
I am glad to see that everyone is at peace.
want to be hindu
Member
Let me try to expain icon worshop in one more way. Hindus see God in all things, God is in stone,wood, animals and most clearly in people.this is why many of us (pagen and Hindu alike) feel comfortable seeing the divine in HER material manifestation. Some Hindus use idols to remind us of God, some use yantras, (symbolic diagrams) others use fire, many use no image at all.
Ramakrishna says "Jato mat tato path, As many faiths so many paths"
Ramakrishna says "Jato mat tato path, As many faiths so many paths"
Darkwater
Well-Known Member
Supremely excellent in quality or nature: consummate, faultless, flawless, impeccable, indefectible, perfect, unflawed Free from extraneous elements: perfect, plain, pure, sheer 2, simple, unadulterated, undiluted, unmixed Without limitations or mitigating conditions: unconditional, unconditioned, unqualified, unreserved Having no reservations: implicit, unconditional, undoubting, unfaltering, unhesitating, unquestioning, unreserved, wholehearted Completely such, without qualification or exception: all-out, arrant, complete, consummate, crashing, downright, flat, out-and-out, outright, perfect, plain, pure, sheer 2, thorough, thoroughgoing, total, unbounded, unequivocal, unlimited, unmitigated, unqualified, unrelieved, unreserved, utter flat-out, positive.
blooming. ballistic,superballistic,dynamic,superdynamic Vi/Ultra Vi.
xxxxxxxx
Hindu's have it going on too,nice labels.
There is only one reason why the bible disassociates itself from idol worship,in the commandments which is a survivors guide to navigating the abyss or the land of milk & honey.
It says nothing against self deification.....on the contrary,it does recognise the importance of the *you*.Number 4 I believe.
blooming. ballistic,superballistic,dynamic,superdynamic Vi/Ultra Vi.
xxxxxxxx
Hindu's have it going on too,nice labels.
There is only one reason why the bible disassociates itself from idol worship,in the commandments which is a survivors guide to navigating the abyss or the land of milk & honey.
It says nothing against self deification.....on the contrary,it does recognise the importance of the *you*.Number 4 I believe.
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ax0547
Sat Sri Akal
So whats wrong with Idol worship?
But whats right with it too?
-----oo Because its the representation of God
Us as humans representing something as God does not make that idol God, God is Unseeable but only realizable - If you think you can represent it with something you create you are totally decieving yourself.
You see in hinduism most idols represent one god- "or as some say one power aspect of one big god", then you are praying to that one aspect not the wholistic god. And god as a whole is god; if broken down in to pieces for example - sun god lighteing god etc. then that becomes part of god not "god". I think this is clear enough - any thing to be elaborated on let me know?
And here the Hymns from Gurbani - in the first it is clearly states that in oeder to provide contentment how people tend to decieve themselves by making idols.
Then there's second one too>
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]The Muslims praise the Islamic law and they read and reflect upon it.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]According to them the Lord's servants are only they, who fall in captivity (of orthodoxy of Islamic law) to see His sight.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy God, when they see in many a beauteous form.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]They bathe at holy places, make flower -offerings and spread the perfume of eagle-wood before idols.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The Yogis, that there are, meditate on the Absolute Lord and name the Creator as Unseen.[/SIZE]But to the Lord of minute (form less) personality and of the immaculate Name, they give the form of a body.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]In the mind of the generous, contentment is produced and they think of giving (in charity)[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]They give and ask in turn, a thousand times more hereafter and wish the world to honour them.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The thieves, adulterers, perjurers evil-doers and sinners.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Like the above, depart after eating here, what they had. Have they thus done any good deed?[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]There are beings in water, on land, in the worlds, in the universes and in the worlds, in the germs and microbes.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]What they say, that thou knowest and for them, too, Thou carest.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]But, the saints, O Nanak, hunger to praise Thee, O Lord, and the True Name is their mainstay.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The eternal beatitude, they abide, day and night, and they are the dust of the feet of the virtuous.[/SIZE]
Another one
First Mehl:
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.
As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols.
They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.
The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.
But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||
But whats right with it too?
-----oo Because its the representation of God
Us as humans representing something as God does not make that idol God, God is Unseeable but only realizable - If you think you can represent it with something you create you are totally decieving yourself.
You see in hinduism most idols represent one god- "or as some say one power aspect of one big god", then you are praying to that one aspect not the wholistic god. And god as a whole is god; if broken down in to pieces for example - sun god lighteing god etc. then that becomes part of god not "god". I think this is clear enough - any thing to be elaborated on let me know?
And here the Hymns from Gurbani - in the first it is clearly states that in oeder to provide contentment how people tend to decieve themselves by making idols.
Then there's second one too>
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]The Muslims praise the Islamic law and they read and reflect upon it.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]According to them the Lord's servants are only they, who fall in captivity (of orthodoxy of Islamic law) to see His sight.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy God, when they see in many a beauteous form.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]They bathe at holy places, make flower -offerings and spread the perfume of eagle-wood before idols.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The Yogis, that there are, meditate on the Absolute Lord and name the Creator as Unseen.[/SIZE]But to the Lord of minute (form less) personality and of the immaculate Name, they give the form of a body.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]In the mind of the generous, contentment is produced and they think of giving (in charity)[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]They give and ask in turn, a thousand times more hereafter and wish the world to honour them.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The thieves, adulterers, perjurers evil-doers and sinners.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Like the above, depart after eating here, what they had. Have they thus done any good deed?[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]There are beings in water, on land, in the worlds, in the universes and in the worlds, in the germs and microbes.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]What they say, that thou knowest and for them, too, Thou carest.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]But, the saints, O Nanak, hunger to praise Thee, O Lord, and the True Name is their mainstay.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The eternal beatitude, they abide, day and night, and they are the dust of the feet of the virtuous.[/SIZE]
Another one
First Mehl:
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.
As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols.
They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.
The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.
But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||
want to be hindu
Member
illiousion
I agree but still you seem to be under the illusion that a finite mind can conceive of the infinite. The mind is unable to realize God. If you think that god is different then your self then you too are an idol worshiper.
No body who understands Hinduism believes this. Why would you say this. It is clear to me that you dont understand what Hinduism is about.Please stop telling us Hindus what we believe. I dont, and every educated Hindu I know dosnt believe this stuff that you claim we believe.
A murti (Idol) is used to focus the mind to calm it down and go into medetation to transend the mind . Hindus do not believe that we can create an accurate image of God. I believe that God is the ground of all being IT is to big to think about.
I could give your same arguement on Idols on the The Sikh practice of remembrance of the divine Name. How could a name represent God.How could any words a human could say represent God. God is to big for a Human to name IT. I would not do this because I know that the Sikhs use the name to focous the mind.I know you believe that God is infinet. I have respect for the sikh faith and would not try to mislead others.
Thank you once again for telling me what I believe.