What is 'The Word'?

[Willamena]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word as with God, and the Word was God.

I have heard some argue that 'The Word' (Logos) is Jesus in Heaven before his incarnation on Earth. What does that mean, for him to exist as 'The Word'?

Still others say that 'The Word' (Logos) is Wisdom, a separate "lost" feminine deity, possibly part of a Hebrew pantheon. Does this represent a Jewish, or perhaps Gnostic, belief?

The following quote indicates another interpretation of 'The Word'. It represents the understanding of some Akan tribes-people who settled Jamaica after emancipation, and adopted Christianity; sort of a blend of old-world African and new-world New Testament, and claimed as "Coptic revelation."

"What does that mean? That means that to know the Word was to know God, to be with God, to manifest God. To know the Word and speak it was to make the Word of God occur."

I'm aware that God speaks things into existence in Genesis, but how does man manifest God by knowing 'the Word' of God?

 

[Circle_One]

Still others say that 'The Word' (Logos) is Wisdom, a separate "lost" feminine deity, possibly part of a Hebrew pantheon. Does this represent a Jewish, or perhaps Gnostic, belief?

This would be Sophia. She IS Wisdom. She is Wisdom of Deity. She was revered as the wise bride of Solomon byt the Jews, worshipped as the Queen of Wisdom and the Hunt by the Greeks (as Athena) and as the holy spirit of Wisdom by Christians. By many she is considered the bride (and feminine counterpart) of God.

Sophia is found throughout the wisdom books of the Bible. There are many references to Her in the book of Proverbs, and in the apocryphal books of Sirach and the Wisdom of Solomon (accepted by Catholics and Orthodox, found in the Greek Septuagint of the early Church). She is Wisdom Incarnate, the Goddess of all those who are wise.

Sophia with her three daughters; Faith, Hope and Charity/Love

 

[doppelganger]

I'm aware that God speaks things into existence in Genesis, but how does man manifest God by knowing 'the Word' of God?

We create the reality of your entire universe by understanding it in contrast our own conscious experience of self. "The Word" (Greek logos) is the method by which the whole cosmos comes into existenece for the experiencing "self."

If there is no consciousness of self, then there is no "other" and no Word. By becoming conscious of self ("I am that I am"), God created the Universe and everything in it as not "I am that I am" not out of what wasn't there before but by virtue of God's awareness of "other" predicated on awareness of self. Who is "God" in this? Anyone who speaks the Word, i.e. anyone with consciousness of self.

The world of God - the world of the Father - is the Unity - a Oneness so complete that it cannot even be aware of itself. The world of the Logos - the world of the Son - is the world of creation - the world of "things" spoken into existence when the Unity becomes "self" aware. The world of the Spirit is the glimpses of the Unity that still sits beneath the Universe created by the Divine Logos.

the doppleganger

 

[sparkyluv]

I have heard some argue that 'The Word' (Logos) is Jesus in Heaven before his incarnation on Earth. What does that mean, for him to exist as 'The Word'?

Still others say that 'The Word' (Logos) is Wisdom, a separate "lost" feminine deity, possibly part of a Hebrew pantheon. Does this represent a Jewish, or perhaps Gnostic, belief?

The following quote indicates another interpretation of 'The Word'. It represents the understanding of some Akan tribes-people who settled Jamaica after emancipation, and adopted Christianity; sort of a blend of old-world African and new-world New Testament, and claimed as "Coptic revelation."

"What does that mean? That means that to know the Word was to know God, to be with God, to manifest God. To know the Word and speak it was to make the Word of God occur."

I'm aware that God speaks things into existence in Genesis, but how does man manifest God by knowing 'the Word' of God?

Do you mean John 1:1-2? 'The Word' in that sense refers to Jesus/God.

Verses 3-5 clarify it more.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

Then again verse 14

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

but how does man manifest God by knowing 'the Word' of God?

John 14:6. Through Jesus, we know the Father.

If you mean the simple phrase, "The Word of God" or "The Word" then that's just another way of saying 'the bible'. "I'm gettin in the word today." Is a phrase I use all the time.

 

[Willamena]

We create the reality of your entire universe by understanding it in contrast our own conscious experience of self. "The Word" (Greek logos) is the method by which the whole cosmos comes into existenece for the experiencing "self."

If there is no consciousness of self, then there is no "other" and no Word. By becoming conscious of self ("I am that I am"), God created the Universe and everything in it as not "I am that I am" not out of what wasn't there before but by virtue of God's awareness of "other" predicated on awareness of self. Who is "God" in this? Anyone who speaks the Word, i.e. anyone with consciousness of self.

The world of God - the world of the Father - is the Unity - a Oneness so complete that it cannot even be aware of itself. The world of the Logos - the world of the Son - is the world of creation - the world of "things" spoken into existence when the Unity becomes "self" aware. The world of the Spirit is the glimpses of the Unity that still sits beneath the Universe created by the Divine Logos.

the doppleganger

Thank you. That actually makes sense to me.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Sounds like a Gnostic notion to me, but as it is a translation, who knows what the original meaning is? Only someone who can read ancient Hebrew and has access to an original manuscript, I would guess, and I haven't heard of anyone who claims to have access to one of those.

Would be very interesting to hear a Rabbi's take on this.

B.

 

[doppelganger]

Sounds like a Gnostic notion to me, but as it is a translation, who knows what the original meaning is? Only someone who can read ancient Hebrew and has access to an original manuscript, I would guess, and I haven't heard of anyone who claims to have access to one of those.

Would be very interesting to hear a Rabbi's take on this.

B.

I think Greek would be the language you want, since the logos is very much borrowed both in sense and style from Plato, Heraclitus and particularly Philo the Pythagorean of Alexandria, Egypt, the Jewish Neo-Platonist philosopher writing in the first half of the First Century C.E. who was waist deep in Greek-Jewish synchretism. Also, I don't think there's much doubt that the gospel attributed to John was originally written in Greek.

the doppleganger

 

[joeboonda]

In the Bible, Jesus is the Word.

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(King James Bible, John)

 

[sojourner]

We create the reality of your entire universe by understanding it in contrast our own conscious experience of self. "The Word" (Greek logos) is the method by which the whole cosmos comes into existenece for the experiencing "self."

If there is no consciousness of self, then there is no "other" and no Word. By becoming conscious of self ("I am that I am"), God created the Universe and everything in it as not "I am that I am" not out of what wasn't there before but by virtue of God's awareness of "other" predicated on awareness of self. Who is "God" in this? Anyone who speaks the Word, i.e. anyone with consciousness of self.

The world of God - the world of the Father - is the Unity - a Oneness so complete that it cannot even be aware of itself. The world of the Logos - the world of the Son - is the world of creation - the world of "things" spoken into existence when the Unity becomes "self" aware. The world of the Spirit is the glimpses of the Unity that still sits beneath the Universe created by the Divine Logos.

the doppleganger

I agree, but let's take this a step further. The "I AM that I AM" that we find in Exodus 3 is really in more of a "causitive" sense: "I cause to be what comes to be." If we're speaking existentially here(and I believe we are), then we (in a sense) have our being created by self-actualization, through knowledge of our "selfness," over against "otherness." (That is one reason why we cannot know God: God is "other.")

But that spark of awareness comes form God (when God breathed spirit into Adam's nostrils "and he became a living being.") So, God gives us the awareness by which we become self-aware. In that sense, God creates us.

The Word, spoken of in John, is Jesus. Why? Because Jesus is the archetype of complete humanity. Jesus is the exemplar of a fully-actualized and realized human being. Jesus was able to span the breadth of self-awareness and other awareness. We humans don't really know ourselves as "of God." We can talk about it and speculate on what that might mean, but our self-awareness only extends to...ourself. It doesn't include a true feeling of oneness with God or with the rest of humanity. Jesus sought to bridge that gap. That's why the two commandments that bring true life are: love God and love neighbor. In other words, love meant in the sense that we become truly one -- not that we help and/or adore. Kindness and adoration are vehicles we use in order to create unity with God and neighbor.

Since our relationship is built on the dynamic of love, itimplies more than one individual. Therefore, God is not a single Being, but a unified, collective Being, in which all created souls, truly aware of self, are also aware of other and their unity in that otherness. The Word -- Christ -- bridges the gap between our individual self and the unified other.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sounds like a Gnostic notion to me, but as it is a translation, who knows what the original meaning is? Only someone who can read ancient Hebrew and has access to an original manuscript, I would guess, and I haven't heard of anyone who claims to have access to one of those.

Would be very interesting to hear a Rabbi's take on this.

B.

While a rabbi's take on this might be interesting, the NT is written in Greek, and there are no existing originals of the Gospel of John, or anything else in the NT.

The Greek word is easy enough to read, logos, and there are plenty of Greek manuscripts to attest that it is the word that the writer of John used, and an abundance of classical and philosophical literature that gives us an idea of what he meant.

In Stoic/Socratic literature, the logos is the substance that holds the universe together, bringing order to the cosmos. It's a cosmological word, and it is not inherently Gnostic by any means. Socratic and Stoic philosophers provide adequate usage of logos long before Gnostics came on the scene so the author of John need not have any contact with Gnostics at all to use the word like he did.

 

[doppelganger]

Socratic and Stoic philosophers provide adequate usage of logos long before Gnostics came on the scene so the author of John need not have any contact with Gnostics at all to use the word like he did.

That might depend on what one means by "Gnostic."

the doppleganger

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That might depend on what one means by "Gnostic."

the doppleganger

You're exactly right. I'm sceptical of any identifications of Gnostics in the NT writings. Many of the critera used to conclude Gnostic influence fits perfectly into other groups who simply are not Gnostic. It seems like an anachronism to me, and particularly with the strict rules of proof and evidence that many people apply to the NT (eg, questioning the historicity of Christ, the precise nature of the earliest Christians, etc), the rush to date the Gnostic Christians as part of earliest Christianity is rather duplicitous and intellectually dishonest.

IMO, Gnostic Christianity is a later development of Christianty, arriving on the scene only after the Christian documents (not oral history) were widely circulated and respected by the early churches. Other groups may have existed with proto-Gnostic tendacies, just as proto-Orthodox churches existed, but a clear cut Gnostic sect and proto-Orthodox sects that understood themselves to be different and interacting with eachother antagonistically did not exist.

 

[Willamena]

In the Bible, Jesus is the Word.

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(King James Bible, John)

Thank you. Brief, but unhelpful.

 

[doppelganger]

But that spark of awareness comes form God (when God breathed spirit into Adam's nostrils "and he became a living being.") So, God gives us the awareness by which we become self-aware. In that sense, God creates us.

If by "God" you mean "that which is the cause or source of things the cause or source of which I cannot discern, understand or directly experience" then I think I would generally agree, though I might come to conclusions about some of the "why" and the "how" from the evidence I can experience. If you mean something else, then I don't know to what you are referring.

But yes, I am self aware, and why and how specifically the first split occurs that creates my awareness of "self" is an interesting journey.

The Word, spoken of in John, is Jesus. Why? Because Jesus is the archetype of complete humanity. Jesus is the exemplar of a fully-actualized and realized human being. Jesus was able to span the breadth of self-awareness and other awareness.

I like this, and I have reached a similar conclusion as you, I think, that the logos spoken of in the gospel attributed to John is meant to be taken as the character of Jesus in the story that follows - as an archetype of complete humanity - a harmonizing of the "self" and "other" that changes my perception of self and allows me to walk through the walls that separate me from the "Kingdom of God" or the "Garden of Eden" or "Paradise" (literally, "walled garden") and identify my "self" with "other" through empathy. This is "Love" to me. It is why "God is Love" is the ultimate expression of the meaning of the "Christian" version of the "faith" to me.

We humans don't really know ourselves as "of God." We can talk about it and speculate on what that might mean, but our self-awareness only extends to...ourself. It doesn't include a true feeling of oneness with God or with the rest of humanity. Jesus sought to bridge that gap. That's why the two commandments that bring true life are: love God and love neighbor. In other words, love meant in the sense that we become truly one -- not that we help and/or adore. Kindness and adoration are vehicles we use in order to create unity with God and neighbor.

Beautifully said. Those who have ears to hear should listen.

Since our relationship is built on the dynamic of love, itimplies more than one individual. Therefore, God is not a single Being, but a unified, collective Being, in which all created souls, truly aware of self, are also aware of other and their unity in that otherness. The Word -- Christ -- bridges the gap between our individual self and the unified other.

As we become aware of awareness, and recognize our self in others, we draw closer to all of the other that makes up the rest of this collective Being that is "God." Though I'm not wedded to the language, when I express my experience through the language of the "Christian" version of the "faith," this is what it means to me to "come to the Father through [Jesus]."

the doppleganger

 

[Halcyon]

You're exactly right. I'm sceptical of any identifications of Gnostics in the NT writings. Many of the critera used to conclude Gnostic influence fits perfectly into other groups who simply are not Gnostic.

I agree that many groups share ideas, but i disagree that Gnostic ideas cannot be found in NT writings, specifically the authentic works of Paul. There is much in Paul that makes good sense when read from the Gnostic perspective, but needs to be quite radically (and often tenuously) interpreted to bring it into line with orthodox teaching.

It seems like an anachronism to me, and particularly with the strict rules of proof and evidence that many people apply to the NT (eg, questioning the historicity of Christ, the precise nature of the earliest Christians, etc), the rush to date the Gnostic Christians as part of earliest Christianity is rather duplicitous and intellectually dishonest.

I agree, i dislike it when people simply assume the involvement of Gnosticism, just because they are dissatisfied with orthodox Christianity. Gnosticism is quickly becoming the new fad which can only do real schlarship injustice.

On the other hand, i do see the influence of Gnosticism on the NT and, like a said before, specifically Gnostic concepts in some places.
The Gospel of John in particular can be seen as a direct attack on the Gospel of Thomas and the Christians who used it, re-casting Thomas as doubting Thomas for example.

IMO, Gnostic Christianity is a later development of Christianity, arriving on the scene only after the Christian documents (not oral history) were widely circulated and respected by the early churches.

I disgree again, Irenaeus himself spend most of his time attacking Gnosticism, suggesting that it was as at least as well established in the 2nd century as proto-orthdoxy. And if the earliest dating of the Gospel of Thomas is accurate (50CE) then Gnostic ideas had an early origin within Christianity.

More importantly we know that Gnosticism pre-dates Christianity, and we have a direct evolution of thought within the Sethian Gnostics from Jewish mysticism into Christianity.

Other groups may have existed with proto-Gnostic tendacies, just as proto-Orthodox churches existed, but a clear cut Gnostic sect and proto-Orthodox sects that understood themselves to be different and interacting with each other antagonistically did not exist.

Well, they certainly did in the second century, but yes, in the first century i think the faith was not organised enough to develop internal competition to any real extent.

It should also be noted that there was no organised orthdoxy during the time of Irenaeus (130-202), in fact it was one of Irenaeus's goals to continue Polycarp's work and unite all Christians under one catholic church.
Yet one of the best known groups of Gnostics, the Valentinians, pre-date Irenaeus, Valentinus himself living from 100-153(ish). Thus he had already formed an organised group of Gnostic followers while the orthodox were still running around trying to link everyone together.

In reply to the OP, logos is translated as Word, Logic, Reason, Understanding etc. In Gnosticism the logos is the syzygy to Sophia/Wisdom. The word logos originates in Greek philosophy, although the concept may have developed independantly - for example Plotinus once referred to "our friends who thought like us before they were our friends" (i paraphrase from memory), which could have been the Sethians, we can only speculate.

 

[doppelganger]

You're exactly right. I'm sceptical of any identifications of Gnostics in the NT writings.

What do you mean when you refer to something as "Gnostic"?

Many of the critera used to conclude Gnostic influence fits perfectly into other groups who simply are not Gnostic.

That still depends on what you mean by "Gnostic", as does the rest of your post. Would you mind clarifying this for me please?

the doppleganger

 

[doppelganger]

Angellous:

Happy birthday, by the way!

Where's the cake? :eat:

the doppleganger

 

[lunamoth]

Did someone say cake...?

*Happy Birthday!*

 

[verita]

I have heard some argue that 'The Word' (Logos) is Jesus in Heaven before his incarnation on Earth. What does that mean, for him to exist as 'The Word'?

Still others say that 'The Word' (Logos) is Wisdom, a separate "lost" feminine deity, possibly part of a Hebrew pantheon. Does this represent a Jewish, or perhaps Gnostic, belief?

The following quote indicates another interpretation of 'The Word'. It represents the understanding of some Akan tribes-people who settled Jamaica after emancipation, and adopted Christianity; sort of a blend of old-world African and new-world New Testament, and claimed as "Coptic revelation."

"What does that mean? That means that to know the Word was to know God, to be with God, to manifest God. To know the Word and speak it was to make the Word of God occur."

I'm aware that God speaks things into existence in Genesis, but how does man manifest God by knowing 'the Word' of God?

The Word of God is our Lord Jesus Christ. He is The Word of God because no man can go closer to God the Father Almighty even up to this time; it is only his Son which is our Lord Jesus Christ that can go closer to him.
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in LIGHT which cannot be approached, whom no one of men have seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

Therefore, our Lord Jesus Christ brings with him the Word of God to give it to humans. In the earlier times our Lord Jesus Christ spoke the Word of God directly to the Prophets and the Apostles. And men of God on earth write down the Word in the Book. Those books are now compiled and called The Bible.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Like the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ has with him the Wisdom of God because as I said, no man can go closer to the Almighty Father. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ is called the Wisdom of God.
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The Wisdom is in the Word of God written in the bible. God want to give Christians his wisdom. You will receive that Wisdom if you read and study the Bible sincerely. Remember studying is different from reading.
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,

God wants us to receive his Wisdom because the wisdom of this world is a foolishness with God.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

However, reading or studying the Bible is not as simple as that because you need the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The first thing you do before reading the Bible is TURN AWAY from sins. If you continue committing sins, don't expect in any way that you will receive the wisdom and understanding of the Word of God.
Pro 1:23 Turn at my warning; behold, I will pour out my Spirit to you; I will make my words known to you.

Another way of knowing the Wisdom of God is by listening to a Preacher who is sent by God. A real Preacher and not a Deceiver. If you try to find one, you will find it. Remember, God does not send many Preachers but only ONE.
Mat 7:7 Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but TRY the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

How to TRY the spirit? Get a Bible and ask a Preacher ANYTHING about the Laws of God. It is a commandment from God to ask a Preacher.
Hag 2:11 So says Jehovah of Hosts: Now ask the priests the Law, saying,

If a Preacher mentions a verse, read it from your Bible. If his answer is very short, precise and clearly stated in the Bible then that man must be of God. Because a man of God had a mouth full of Wisdom that no one can resist.
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

The Word of God and the Wisdom of God is very difficult to explain because they are of spiritual things, just like a soul is difficult to explain.


God bless you.

 

[Deut 13:1]

I agree, but let's take this a step further. The "I AM that I AM" that we find in Exodus 3 is really in more of a...

How about before we go venture forward with such foolish notions, we take a step back and get the right translation so as to prevent a 4x paragraph rant with a faulty opening thesis.