What is 'The Word'?

[TashaN]

In the Bible, Jesus is the Word.

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why it can't simply be, "In the beginning was God", unless you believe that Jesus was created before God himself???

1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Him??? referring to Jesus or God, i'm confused here.

 

[doppelganger]

How about before we go venture forward with such foolish notions, we take a step back and get the right translation so as to prevent a 4x paragraph rant with a faulty opening thesis.

NIV and NAS has it as "I am who I am" with NIV there's a note for "or 'I will be what I will be.'" King James has "Who I Am." ASV has the version quoted above: "I Am That I Am." YLT has "I Am That Which I Am."

There are some differences in the poetry of the different English translations, but from my perspective they don't substantially differ in meaning from one another.

the doppleganger

 

[!Fluffy!]

I have heard some argue that 'The Word' (Logos) is Jesus in Heaven before his incarnation on Earth. What does that mean, for him to exist as 'The Word'?

This is pretty much a no-brainer scripturally (see the Gospel of John, Ch. 1). John meant exactly what he said: Christ existed before creation. The Logos (Word: "all things were made through him" as mentioned by a previous poster, the Creator spoke everything into creation, as in "let there be light") can also be understood correctly in the Hellenic sense of Logos = "Reason" as in logical.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Use_in_Christianity
LOGOS: Use in Christianity

In Christianity, the prologue of the Gospel of John calls Jesus "the Logos" (usually translated as "the Word" in English bibles such as the KJV) and played a central role in establishing the doctrine of Jesus' divinity and the Trinity. (See Christology.) The opening verse in the KJV reads: "In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word [Logos] was with God, and the Word [Logos] was God."
...
Some scholars of the Bible have suggested that John made creative use of double meaning in the word "Logos" to communicate to both Jews, who were familiar with the Wisdom tradition in Judaism, and Hellenists, especially followers of Philo. Each of these two groups had its own history associated with the concept of the Logos, and each could understand John's use of the term from one or both of those contexts. Especially for the Hellenists, however, John turns the concept of the Logos on its head when he claimed "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14). Similarly, some translations of the Gospel of John into Chinese have used the word "Tao (&#36947" to translate the "Logos" in a provocative way.

... more

Gordon Clark famously translated Logos as "Logic" in the opening verses of the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Logic, and the Logic was with God and the Logic was God." He meant to imply by this translation that the laws of logic were contained in the Bible itself and were therefore not a secular principle imposed on the Christian worldview.






On April 1, 2005, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (who would later become Pope Benedict XVI) referred to the Christian religion as the religion of the Logos:

"From the beginning, Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the Logos, as the religion according to reason. ... It has always defined men, all men without distinction, as creatures and images of God, proclaiming for them ... the same dignity. In this connection, the Enlightenment is of Christian origin and it is no accident that it was born precisely and exclusively in the realm of the Christian faith. ... It was and is the merit of the Enlightenment to have again proposed these original values of Christianity and of having given back to reason its own voice ... Today, this should be precisely [Christianity's] philosophical strength, in so far as the problem is whether the world comes from the irrational, and reason is not other than a 'sub-product', on occasion even harmful of its development — or whether the world comes from reason, and is, as a consequence, its criterion and goal. ... In the so necessary dialogue between secularists and Catholics, we Christians must be very careful to remain faithful to this fundamental line: to live a faith that comes from the Logos, from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational." [1]

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Jesus didn't come here to make bad people good
Jesus came here to make dead people live - Ravi Zacharias
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[Deut 13:1]

NIV and NAS has it as "I am who I am" with NIV there's a note for "or 'I will be what I will be.'" King James has "Who I Am." ASV has the version quoted above: "I Am That I Am." YLT has "I Am That Which I Am."

There are some differences in the poetry of the different English translations, but from my perspective they don't substantially differ in meaning from one another.

the doppleganger

Is there a difference between these:
I am going to the store.
I will be going to the store.

In Hebrew, like English, we have something called tenses, maybe not as many, but we still have them. Learn to translate them correctly.

 

[doppelganger]

Why it can't simply be, "In the beginning was God", unless you believe that Jesus was created before God himself???

That would be a different poem.

Why can't Moby Dick open with "Call me Marty . . ."? Because if you are talking about the Herman Melville novel of that title, in my experience, it doesn't.

Him??? referring to Jesus or God, i'm confused here.

I could see how there could be some ambiguity in whether "him" as used in 1:3 refers back to "the Word" or "God." But since the first line of the poem reads "the Word was God" it may not have mattered to the author to be any clearer than he/she was.

the doppleganger

 

[doppelganger]

Is there a difference between these:
I am going to the store.
I will be going to the store.

In Hebrew, like English, we have something called tenses, maybe not as many, but we still have them. Learn to translate them correctly.

You should talk to the scholars that translated Hebrew into the different English translations I'm quoting from. I'm just the angel (don't shoot the malak).

Other than the authority of someone who has an established reputation for the translation of Hebrew into English, I have no way "translating them correctly." Even if I became a world reknowned expert in translating Hebrew, I would still only know the sense of words by what I learned from others.

If you think there should be one and only one way to say it, I'm not a very good audience since I didn't write any of those translations.

What English phrase do you believe should be used?

the doppleganger

 

[TashaN]

Why can't Moby Dick open with "Call me Marty . . ."? Because if you are talking about the Herman Melville novel of that title, in my experience, it doesn't.

Ha?

What are you talking about. Please make it more simple because i'm not a native speaker in english.

 

[James the Persian]

This would be Sophia. She IS Wisdom. She is Wisdom of Deity. She was revered as the wise bride of Solomon byt the Jews, worshipped as the Queen of Wisdom and the Hunt by the Greeks (as Athena) and as the holy spirit of Wisdom by Christians. By many she is considered the bride (and feminine counterpart) of God.

Sophia with her three daughters; Faith, Hope and Charity/Love

The St. Sophia in the icon you posted above is not the same Sophia as that spoken of in your first paragraph. She and her daughters were real people, martyred in Italy in the second century. The great church Aghia Sophia in Constantinople was not named after her but after the Wisdom of God (and so in English should really be referred to as Holy Wisdom rather than St. Sophia), which is the Sophia you mentioned in your first paragraph but has nothing to do with the Logos and is not considered a feminine counterpart to God. I don't quitre know where you got your information from but they are seriously confusing the two different Sophias if they put forward that icon as representing the Wisdom of God in some way.

James

 

[doppelganger]

Ha?

What are you talking about. Please make it more simple because i'm not a native speaker in english.

http://www.princeton.edu/~batke/moby/moby_001.html

"Call me Ishmael." is the first line of the epic American novel entitled Moby Dick, about an old sea captain obsessed with getting revenge on a giant, white whale that injured him.

Your question was "why can't it be 'in the beginning was 'God.'" The example I gave is just to illustrate the simple point: it could have been anything the author of the book known as the "Gospel of John" wanted to write. But the author wrote what he wrote.

Melville could have written "Call me Marty." instead of "Call me Ishmael." But in all the copies I've ever read, it appears he didn't.

the doppleganger

 

[Deut 13:1]

Don't talk to me. Talk to the scholars that translate Hebrew into English. I'm just the angel.

Other than the authority of someone who has an established reputation for the translation of Hebrew into English, I have no way "translating them correctly." Even if I became a world reknowned expert in translating Hebrew, I would still only know the sense of words by what I learned from others.

If you think there should be one and only one way to say it, I'm not a very good audience since I didn't write any of those translations.

What English phrase do you believe should be used?

the doppleganger

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה "I Will BE as I Will BE", it is in the future tense.

אֶהְיֶה literally means "I Shall Be". If you're interested in reading what Rashi says, you can look up Berachos 9b.

 

[doppelganger]

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה "I Will BE as I Will BE", it is in the future tense.

אֶהְיֶה literally means "I Shall Be". If you're interested in reading what Rashi says, you can look up Berachos 9b.

I appreciate the clarification. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me on your understanding of the proper English translation.

The phrase you've used "I will be what I will be" or "I shall be" could alse be understood like the present perfect tense in English. For example, "Boys will be boys," though using the form of the future tense, could also be phrased "Boys are what boys are," using the present tense, and still have the same meaning to an English speaker. So the phrase you've provided doesn't necessarily change the meaning for me.

Aside from that, if there are translation conflicts between scholars, I have no way of resolving who is right other than my perception of their methods and reputation. And there could, of course, be concerns about my method and my reputation in arriving at those discernments about translators' methods and reputations.

That's just part of the fun of language. Even if I technically speak someone's language, I never can be sure that I have received the intended meaning.


the doppleganger

 

[!Fluffy!]

You should talk to the scholars that translated Hebrew into the different English translations I'm quoting from. I'm just the angel.

Other than the authority of someone who has an established reputation for the translation of Hebrew into English, I have no way "translating them correctly." Even if I became a world reknowned expert in translating Hebrew, I would still only know the sense of words by what I learned from others.

If you think there should be one and only one way to say it, I'm not a very good audience since I didn't write any of those translations.

What English phrase do you believe should be used?

the doppleganger

God answered that pretty clearly: I AM.

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘IAM has sent me to you.’ ” NIV

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

God said to Moshe, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Yisra'el this: "I AM has sent me to you."
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

 

[Deut 13:1]

Sounds like a Gnostic notion to me, but as it is a translation, who knows what the original meaning is? Only someone who can read ancient Hebrew and has access to an original manuscript, I would guess, and I haven't heard of anyone who claims to have access to one of those.

Would be very interesting to hear a Rabbi's take on this.

B.

1) The christian gospels were written in Greek, not Hebrew.
2) Why would you be interested to hear a Rabbi's take on this? Rabbi's don't study christian scripture.

 

[doppelganger]

God answered that pretty clearly: I AM.

Thanks for the expanded list of English translations.

I quoted some of these translations above. The issue, I think, is the contention that the only proper English translation would be something like the NIV alternate translation that I also include above: "I will be what I will be." That could be true. I don't know. Though in English, that doesn't necessarily change the meaning expressed by "I am who I am."

the doppleganger

 

[!Fluffy!]

[/u]Why it can't simply be, "In the beginning was God", unless you believe that Jesus was created before God himself???



Him??? referring to Jesus or God, i'm confused here.

This may help, Truth:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/idbah.John.1.html

 

[doppelganger]

Where the confusion comes in with the English is that "will be" is clearly an indicator of future tense when included in verb phrase with a verb modified with the suffix "-ing". "I will be skiing." "I will be writing."

"I will be," as a statement of being without a verb ending in -ing, could mean the future tense, as in "I am not now, but I will be." Of course, if someone "is not" then who is the "I" uttering the phrase? I'm not sure how this construction could work in any language.

the doppleganger

 

[Deut 13:1]

Dopple + Moon: What English bible do you use?

 

[doppelganger]

And, of course, there's the possible problem of different versions of the source document as well. Christian translators tend to favor the Septuagint (often for non-scholarly reasons perhaps) as a window into the Hebrew, or even the Vulgate sometimes. If the translators who wrote the Septuagint had a version of the Hebrew that had this in the true present tense is unknown. What I do have is the Greek ego eimi ("I am") rather than ego esomai ("I will be") at Exodus 3:14 in the LXX.

Is that a 2300 year old mistranslation by the 70? Possible. Is it a translation of a different version of the Hebrew source document? Also possible.

the doppleganger

 

[TashaN]

http://www.princeton.edu/~batke/moby/moby_001.html

"Call me Ishmael." is the first line of the epic American novel entitled Moby Dick, about an old sea captain obsessed with getting revenge on a giant, white whale that injured him.

Your question was "why can't it be 'in the beginning was 'God.'" The example I gave is just to illustrate the simple point: it could have been anything the author of the book known as the "Gospel of John" wanted to write. But the author wrote what he wrote.

Melville could have written "Call me Marty." instead of "Call me Ishmael." But in all the copies I've ever read, it appears he didn't.

the doppleganger

It won't be much clearer than that. I got your point, thanks.

 

[doppelganger]

Dopple + Moon: What English bible do you use?

I usually read NIV, though if I have a question or concern about a phrase or word, I'll review it across multiple translations starting with KJV, NAS and YLT. If there's a discrepency, then I look it up in Strong's, and scholarly articles about the differences. Often there is a legitimate dispute. Often that dispute centers around the very concerns you and I are currently discussing - multiple source documents, use of intermediary translations for (or non-use of them) sometimes motivated by theological concerns rather than linguistic ones, and the inability of some phrases and words to be translated from one language to another without losing some of their meaning or creating confusion because of different grammatical conventions.

the doppleganger