What is the solution for ILLEGAL immigrants?

[Mister_T]

I guess my concern here is that you seem to advocating an open borders policy

I advocate an easy opputunity to become a part of this nation. And your ancestors took advantage of an open border policy, so I don't see why you would have a problem with it.

People can freely run across our borders and freely run back and all is good (after all, we are the land of the free, right?).

I've rarely encountered people who willfully go back to where they came from after obtaining citizenship (or even if they don't obtain citizenship). Matter of fact, I don't believe I've personally ever heard of such a thing.

if you have people coming into your country that really have no interest in becoming part of the country then what are we to make of having elected representatives

And how exactly do we dertermine if an individual has "no interest" in becoming a part of this country? Sounds like a bad stereotype to me.

How does a representative serve his fellow citizens when those citizens have little to respect for the rule of law?

Sounds like bad propaganda. How many of our own born and raised citizens show respect for the law?

And if we keep on doing nothing; how does that affect the House of Representatives where we are required to have a census to determine representation (do we count illegals or not)?

The illegal population don't seem to have a problem representing themselves. I don't see the House of reps "crumbling" anytime soon due to illegal immigrants.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Mister T,

And how exactly do we dertermine if an individual has "no interest" in becoming a part of this country? Sounds like a bad stereotype to me.

Because the first act of entering this country is to ignore its laws that and the anti-American attitudes that many Mexicans have (I believe there was a poll that came out a couple of weeks ago confirming this).

Sounds like bad propaganda. How many of our own born and raised citizens show respect for the law?

I would say a lot.

The illegal population don't seem to have a problem representing themselves. I don't see the House of reps "crumbling" anytime soon due to illegal immigrants.

This rasies the question of political representation. If we have a large subset of people that by entering our country break its laws (and then demand that its lawmakers award such brazen behavior) and are here illegally how does that effect the actions of lawmakers? Do representatives take into account the attitudes of illegals and if they do is this right?

 

[doppelganger]

What's your plan for these scofflaws, Joe?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi doppelganger,

My plan is first to stop the flow of illegal immigration (by border fences and other security measures which actually do work). And then we can have a real discussion about what to do with the illegals that are already here (I would advocate deporting illegals with criminal records first). And then we could go from there.

 

[Mister_T]

Because the first act of entering this country is to ignore its laws that and the anti-American attitudes that many Mexicans have (I believe there was a poll that came out a couple of weeks ago confirming this).

1)Ask a Native American how many of their laws we ignored.

2)I'd like to see that poll "confirming" that a vast majority of the illegal population is anti-American. I'd also like to see what the "method" is for determining such a thing. I personally find that statement to be rubbish and more propaganda. What I see is people not liking others being proud of their heritage, thus spawning dogmas such as this.

3)People will do what they need to have a better life for themselves and their families. If our immigration laws were 'nt so strict, they would be more legal citizens, thus have having more "law abiding" citizens. Not to mention a good portion of our population does not respect our laws that we have in place. What should we do with these anti-American lawbreakers that are our own citizens? Deport them too?

I would say a lot.

A lot are also in prison. Let's deport them too so we're not hypocritcal.

This rasies the question of political representation. If we have a large subset of people that by entering our country break its laws (and then demand that its lawmakers award such brazen behavior) and are here illegally how does that effect the actions of lawmakers? Do representatives take into account the attitudes of illegals and if they do is this right?

We commited this act ourselves. A large group of people (The first Americans) entering another persons country (Native Americans) broke their laws (and I am extremly sugar-coating that) and demanded lawmakers award such brazien behavior (actually, it was more like forced).

Chastizing a group of people for not respecting our immigration laws, when we did not extend that same curtosy (and continue not to do so) to our Native Americans, is hypocritical.

Again, if the laws were not so strict, there would be less illegals and more legals...eliminating the "problem" at hand.

And this "attitude" that illegals supposedly have, is rubbish. They are a group of people who want a better life for themselves.

 

[doppelganger]

My plan is first to stop the flow of illegal immigration (by border fences and other security measures which actually do work).

How do you know they work?

And then we can have a real discussion about what to do with the illegals that are already here (I would advocate deporting illegals with criminal records first). And then we could go from there.

Could you be more specific? How would you deport them? What would you do about the ones without "criminal records"? How would you find them?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Mister T,

1)Ask a Native American how many of their laws we ignored.

Yes, a Native American reference, I know I am on the right track.

2)I'd like to see that poll "confirming" that a vast majority of the illegal population is anti-American. I'd also like to see what the "method" is for determining such a thing. I personally find that statement to be rubbish and more propaganda. What I see is people not liking others being proud of their heritage, thus spawning dogmas such as this.

I believe it was a poll of Mexicans living in Mexico (in which they believed we were racist and not generous).

3)People will do what they need to have a better life for themselves and their families. If our immigration laws were 'nt so strict, they would be more legal citizens, thus have having more "law abiding" citizens. Not to mention a good portion of our population does not respect our laws that we have in place. What should we do with these anti-American lawbreakers that are our own citizens? Deport them too?

I think you are setting up a false scenario; you seem to be arguing that because our immigration process is strict that is why people are coming here illegally. But the people that are coming here illegally aren't even attempting at fooling with such niceties (such as following rules). They just simply want to come here, so they do. I would speculate that even if we loosened up our immigration policy, they would still come here illegally.

And American citizens that break the law will be dealt with by America, not too complicated. Nice try though.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi doppelganger,

How do you know they work?

In areas where peolpe really concentrated on stopping illegal immigration (like putting up fences and potrolling those areas) saw a decrease in illegals coming in. I believe Duncan Hunter has done some work on this.

Could you be more specific? How would you deport them? What would you do about the ones without "criminal records"? How would you find them?

I would deport them, meaning send them back to their country. The ones without criminal records could be dealt with in other ways (fining businesses that hire illegals).

 

[doppelganger]

In areas where peolpe really concentrated on stopping illegal immigration (like putting up fences and potrolling those areas) saw a decrease in illegals coming in. I believe Duncan Hunter has done some work on this.

But did it decrease the flow of immigrants? Or did it just relocate where the flow was occurring?

I would deport them, meaning send them back to their country. The ones without criminal records could be dealt with in other ways (fining businesses that hire illegals).

How would you go about finding businesses that hire illegals? How would you administer the fines? How would you find the immigrants to deport them?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi doppelganger,

But did it decrease the flow of immigrants? Or did it just relocate where the flow was occurring?

These are very good questions. If they stopped illegals from entering that point then the strategy was a success and needs to implemented at other places so the flow doesn't move to other places.

How would you go about finding businesses that hire illegals? How would you administer the fines? How would you find the immigrants to deport them?

You could get tips from concerned citizens and then go to the busineses in question. If a business is caught employing illegals they get fined, if they do it again, they get fined again. If you find the illegals at the business, you deport them. If the business knows where they live you go to their homes.

 

[doppelganger]

You could get tips from concerned citizens and then go to the busineses in question. If a business is caught employing illegals they get fined, if they do it again, they get fined again. If you find the illegals at the business, you deport them. If the business knows where they live you go to their homes.

Do you live anywhere near the Mexican border?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi doppelganger,

Do you live anywhere near the Mexican border?

No, I live in Waukesha, Wisconsin (about 20 minutes west of Milwaukee).

 

[Mister_T]

Yes, a Native American reference, I know I am on the right track.

Avoiding the question. I know I'm on the right track.

I believe it was a poll of Mexicans living in Mexico (in which they believed we were racist and not generous).

I (and many others) believe that about a good portion of the U.S. population as well (although I wouldn't use racist. Prejuduce is more accurate). And when I see people constantly smearing cultural propaganda about them, I can see why they might think that. There's nothing anti-American about calling things as you see them.

you seem to be arguing that because our immigration process is strict that is why people are coming here illegally.

You're correct.

But the people that are coming here illegally aren't even attempting at fooling with such niceties (such as following rules).

If that prevents them from coming here, why would they? They would still be living the life in Mexico that they're trying to get away from.

They just simply want to come here, so they do

So did your ancestors. And they're doing for the same reason: A better life. "Land of Oppurtunity" and "Every Man is Equal" are our nation's slogans. Those apply to everybody wanting to come here.

And American citizens that break the law will be dealt with by America, not too complicated. Nice try though

I was pointing out the hypocrisy in the notion that we should not allow immigrants to come here because they are not "law abiding" citizens and that they're being disrespectful to our nation, when we allow our own law breaking citizens to retain their citizenship.

Not too complicated. Nice try though

 

[Ciscokid]

Why are there so many "illegal" immigrants in the U.S.?

What are the proximate causes of "illegal" immigration? Make a list.

Mexico is a failed nation from a government standpoint.

 

[Ciscokid]

I lived in Arizona for 12 years, many of my best friends in school were mexican. They are very hard working people and are very family oriented. I don't have a problem with those types of folks...but I don't want criminals coming across the border unchecked...if you got in trouble back home, stay there.

 

[Wandered Off]

Chastizing a group of people for not respecting our immigration laws, when we did not extend that same curtosy (and continue not to do so) to our Native Americans, is hypocritical.

Using similar reasoning, if any of my ancestors burned witches, would I be hypocritical for speaking out against religious oppression?

 

[Mister_T]

Using similar reasoning, if any of my ancestors burned witches, would I be hypocritical for speaking out against religious oppression?

Well if you want to play that game.....We aren't burning witches anymore are we? Society ceased doing that a long time ago. Yet we STILL are not respecting the Native Americans immigration laws. We instead, just gave them casinos.

But anyways, You're missing my point.

Your ancestors "immigration process" was a cake-walk compared to current times (assuming you are not first generation). So much for land of open door to immigratnts and every man is equal.

Using criminal statistics as a reason for discriminating against immigrants, makes those individuals appear hypocritical when we have our own citizens that are criminals and/or potential criminals.

 

[Wandered Off]

Your ancestors "immigration process" was a cake-walk compared to current times (assuming you are not first generation). So much for land of open door to immigratnts and every man is equal.

You'll get no argument from me that our current system is broken. Legal entry is too difficult, and that is likely the biggest factor driving an individual's choice to bypass legal channels. I completely agree that we need sensible reform.

Still, saying that it's hypocritical for me to ask others to abide by the rule of law because some of my long-dead ancestors didn't is a fallacy.

Using criminal statistics as a reason for discriminating against immigrants, makes those individuals appear hypocritical when we have our own citizens that are criminals and/or potential criminals.

Your interpretation of hypocrisy would be more applicable if it were the criminals of our society citing those statistics, but it's not. Of course we have people within our society who don't follow rules. It's not OK when our legal citizens break the laws either, and nobody is suggesting that it is. However, saying that because we have criminal citizens we therefore shouldn't bother asking non-citizens to follow the law when entering our country is a logical contortion.

Personally, I hold our own citizens who knowingly hire illegal immigrants more responsible for any problems it causes than the hard workers being exploited. Those are the criminals we should be focusing on, IMO, not the ones who accepted their invitation.

 

[Faminedynasty]

It's impossible to stop illegal immigration, it's going to continue to happen regardless of our policy. Therefore it's not really an important issue. We should do our best to patrol the border and make sure that employers aren't exploiting slave wages. That's about it. Until Mexico fixes itself, get used to it.

 

[Ciscokid]

It's impossible to stop illegal immigration, it's going to continue to happen regardless of our policy. Therefore it's not really an important issue. We should do our best to patrol the border and make sure that employers aren't exploiting slave wages. That's about it. Until Mexico fixes itself, get used to it.

That'll happen right after Iraq "fixes" itself. It might be impossible to stop illegal immigration altogether but that doesn't mean we don't do anything at all.