What is the foundation of all the World's Religions?

[Vinayaka]

As stated tuning into the reality of existence and understanding the way things really are. Being a Baha'i and not a Buddhist leads me to defer my expertise in these matters to others. That being said, Baha'is do or should meditate.

Not at all like the Hindu concept then. In Hinduism there are 4 levels of dharma ... universal dharma, human dharma, social dharma, and personal dharma.

Universal is the natural order of the universe, from gravity to subatomic levels.
Social dharma governs society.
Human dharma guides life's 4 stages.
Personal dharma is the individual's own perfect pattern in life.

Practicing one's dharma means a lot, and is a central tenet.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The point is that we if we are to live with others or in a community, there has to be rights and wrongs otherwise its not going to work. The challenge for us is to make it work globally. It has to. The biggest obstacle is now our world view, particularly as it concerns both religious and political spheres.

Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha'i faith has written in similar terms:

"Unification of the whole of mankind is the hall-mark of the stage which human society is now approaching. Unity of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and full established. World unity is the goal towards which a harassed humanity is striving. Nation building has come to an end. The anarchy inherent in state sovereignty is moving towards a climax. A world, growing in maturity, must abandon this fetish, recognise the oneness and wholeness of human relationships, and establish once and for all the machinery that can best incarnate this fundamental principle of life." (The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, page 202).

Not all of us place value in the idea that humans should be united or even think this is feasible. I personally don't think it's possible as humans are a tribalistic species and enjoy fighting with each other. I'm more interested in getting our ridiculous breeding rates under control and taking things back to a much smaller level of focus.

True about the bad eggs in any religion. My concerns is that worshipping a god of war may encourage the bad eggs and discourage the good.

Heathens don't tend to believe that war is bad, in of itself. At least I don't.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I always find this sort of thing troublesome, because if we are truly talking about God, and this is truly His purpose -- why has it failed to work so abominably, in so much of the world? And meaning no unkindness, I point out that Baha'is have fared especially poorly in those lands where the faith began.

I think another aspect to your question is recognising that every religion has its day. Like a tree that ages, its fruits become less and less. Each religion has sacred texts that refer to this theme and how another Educator of humanity will come at a time of moral decline to bring renewal.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not all of us place value in the idea that humans should be united or even think this is feasible. I personally don't think it's possible as humans are a tribalistic species and enjoy fighting with each other. I'm more interested in getting our ridiculous breeding rates under control and taking things back to a much smaller level of focus.

Then that would be like how the tribalism that existed between the indigenous people of my country before the Europeans colonised. Some would want to return to the days of old. However there was warfare, male domination, subsistence living, poor levels of education, slavery, and cannibalism.

Its interesting that fertility rates of developed countries have levelled off. It is the undeveloped countries were population growth is greatest.

Heathens don't tend to believe that war is bad, in of itself. At least I don't.

Reminds me of prior to WWI when even the intellectuals and artists thought that war would be a good thing for Europe....

Across the over side of the globe, every town in New Zealand has monuments to the soldiers that were killed in this war as we supported mother England. Most of us never want to see a repeat of the horrors of war and prefer peaceful means to settle international disputes.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not at all like the Hindu concept then. In Hinduism there are 4 levels of dharma ... universal dharma, human dharma, social dharma, and personal dharma.

Universal is the natural order of the universe, from gravity to subatomic levels.
Social dharma governs society.
Human dharma guides life's 4 stages.
Personal dharma is the individual's own perfect pattern in life.

Practicing one's dharma means a lot, and is a central tenet.

Sounds positive. How do you see your faith contributing to the betterment of the world?

 

[Vinayaka]

Sounds positive. How do you see your faith contributing to the betterment of the world?

Personally, I believe in the molecular theory of social change. One person at a time. So by changing yourself, you change others around you by your example, and it is a slow domino effect. It isn't done by coercion, intellectual convincing, or of course by force. Nothing more than that. I think the effects of Hinduism and other Dharmic faiths are evident all over the planet, but most especially in the west with the growth of non-violent social causes, yoga studios, and the like. Not Hinduism directly, but rooted in Hinduism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then that would be like how the tribalism that existed between the indigenous people of my country before the Europeans colonised. Some would want to return to the days of old. However there was warfare, male domination, subsistence living, poor levels of education, slavery, and cannibalism.

Its interesting that fertility rates of developed countries have levelled off. It is the undeveloped countries were population growth is greatest.

I never said I want to return to some distant time in the past. However, I question your narrative of the cultures of the indigenous people of your country before Europeans colonized it. Colonists and imperialists have a habit of demonizing the native peoples of the lands they are robbing.

I would say that I'm a neo-tribalist in that I believe humans tend to function better in smaller groups and communities, where the ties are much stronger and where more cohesion exists. So I support things like smaller towns over huge cities.

Reminds me of prior to WWI when even the intellectuals and artists thought that war would be a good thing for Europe....

Across the over side of the globe, every town in New Zealand has monuments to the soldiers that were killed in this war as we supported mother England. Most of us never want to see a repeat of the horrors of war and prefer peaceful means to settle international disputes.

Peaceful means would've never worked with Fascists and Nazis since they are militaristic ideologies to start with. You can only destroy them by violently destroying them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So by changing yourself, you change others around you by your example

That's the most important means by far

It isn't done by coercion, intellectual convincing, or of course by force.

Coercion, definitely not.

There is a place for putting forward proofs and arguments IMHO providing it leads to constructive discussion and not dissension. If we have a vision to improve our communities and the world then we probably need to share it.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is a place for putting forward proofs and arguments IMHO providing it leads to constructive discussion and not dissension. If we have a vision to improve our communities and the world then we probably need to share it.

Indeed that is the Bahai view. Not one I share. Bahais have a history of misrepresenting Hinduism, but frankly it matters not to me because its a peaceful faith. To me, ahimsa is the foremost value we humans could ever hold.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Colonists and imperialists have a habit of demonizing the native peoples of the lands they are robbing.

True. Economic exploitation was undoubtedly the main driving force for colonisation. The New Zealand Maori peoples have many noble qualities.

I would say that I'm a neo-tribalist in that I believe humans tend to function better in smaller groups and communities, where the ties are much stronger and where more cohesion exists. So I support things like smaller towns over huge cities.

It is true that we need the smaller towns and we all need to be part of smaller groups and communities. Large cities have significant social problems with social breakdown and loss of community. However we still need to address some issues globally and internationally such as resolving conflict between nations and larger groups of peoples, the environment, the economy, and distribution of some resources.

Peaceful means would've never worked with Fascists and Nazis since they are militaristic ideologies to start with. You can only destroy them by violently destroying them.

It was WWII that clarified the need for international cooperation and accompanying international agencies. As you rightly point out, there are times we need to rise up and destroy the government of a country that arises against other nations. This is entirely consistent with Baha'i ideology. Over 140 years ago Baha'u'llah wrote:

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation."

 

[Dawnofhope]

Bahais have a history of misrepresenting Hinduism, but frankly it matters not to me because its a peaceful faith.

How have Baha'is misrepresented Hinduism?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

My concerns is that worshipping a god of war may encourage the bad eggs and discourage the good.

"Gods of war" is really an oversimplification. Odin is a "God of war" in that he advises matters of war, combat, and self-defense, and receives half the honored dead from battle. He has many other roles and epithets than war.

There is also this:

Where do we draw the line?

What do you mean? What line?

 

[Vinayaka]

How have Baha'is misrepresented Hinduism?

Lots of ways, but one common way is to include Krishna in the list of prophets, falsely assuming that all religions have prophets. No Hindu believes Krishna was a prophet. Of course Bahais or any other group are free to interpret Hinduism as they see fit, whether it agrees with Hinduism or not.

We'd have to discuss further about dharma, but that might be another example. There is also a tendency to describe Hinduism as some monolithic faith that all Hindus believe in certain things whereas its really 3 or more religions rolled into one.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"Gods of war" is really an oversimplification. Odin is a "God of war" in that he advises matters of war, combat, and self-defense, and receives half the honored dead from battle. He has many other roles and epithets than war.

Thank for elaborating and clarifying. Perhaps better questions are:

How does your philosophy bring out the best in people?

How does your faith contribute to the betterment of the world?

What do you mean? What line?

Please see post #75

 

[Dawnofhope]

Lots of ways, but one common way is to include Krishna in the list of prophets, falsely assuming that all religions have prophets. No Hindu believes Krishna was a prophet.

For example by quoting the following:

In the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna expresses Himself ; " Know thou t his, O Prince, that whenever the world declineth in virtue and righteousness, and vice and injustice mountthe throne - then come I, the Lord, and revisit My world in visible form, and mingle as a man with men, and by My influence and teachings do I destroy the evil and injustice, and reestablish virtue and righteousness, many times have I thus appeared; many times hereafter shall I come again."
(Bhagavad-Gita, 4;7,8)

We'd have to discuss further about dharma, but that might be another example. There is also a tendency to describe Hinduism as some monolithic faith that all Hindus believe in certain things whereas its really 3 or more religions rolled into one.

Thanks for clarifying. Admittedly I don't really know too much about Hinduism. However I've met many people of Indian descent, and lived in Fiji for 3 months in a predominantly Indian town. Many of the Hindus I have met seem like good people.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

How does your philosophy bring out the best in people?

Self-reliance, community, strength of family and character, including the expectation of honor and integrity.

How does your faith contribute to the betterment of the world?

Heathenry has no plans at globalization. Yet through teaching better people, better societies grow.

Please see post #75

There is that line already. Per your story, frankly I have to wonder why the cops weren't called. Why everyone let this man threaten to kill someone, and then assumed that "talking him down" was good enough. What he allegedly did was very illegal and wrong, not only by US law but by basic morality.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Per your story, frankly I have to wonder why the cops weren't called. Why everyone let this man threaten to kill someone, and then assumed that "talking him down" was good enough. What he allegedly did was very illegal and wrong, not only by US law but by basic morality.

It was in New Zealand but what you say is correct. My friend felt some obligation to the man as he had helped her out on another occasion. It was one of those stories where a woman who had previously suffered abuse, became over involved with the wrong man. To have not done anything is also a moral failure. It makes it easier for the man to do the same thing to another woman next time. Have you noticed that in your part of the world there are a lot of messed up people? There are lots where I live!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

See post #75 above

I'm sorry but that seems to vague an answer to me - I didn't get it. Could you possibly put it another way? What line are you talking about? Toleration of differences in religious beliefs? Of Paganism? Something else? You gave an anecdotal example of your own singular experience with a Pagan and it almost seems like you were using that as a justification for not desiring to accept Pagans as a religious group. I'm certain I've just misunderstood - I tend to do that. Could you clarify?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm sorry but that seems to vague an answer to me - I didn't get it. Could you possibly put it another way? What line are you talking about? Toleration of differences in religious beliefs? Of Paganism? Something else? You gave an anecdotal example of your own singular experience with a Pagan and it almost seems like you were using that as a justification for not desiring to accept Pagans as a religious group. I'm certain I've just misunderstood - I tend to do that. Could you clarify?

No problem. It can be hard to have clarity and easy to have misunderstandings so I appreciate you asking again.

The point I was making is about behaviours that we accept or don't for us to live together. Violence under many circumstances is not OK and we need to find an appropriate response. Whether we are Christians, Atheists, Pagans, or Baha'is we need to have an agreed set of rules by which we abide. All members of the community need to abide by those rules collectively agreed on and all groups should be contributing to the decision making process around those rules. To be clear I did not say, we should exclude anyone.

The example I raised was a real one that affected me personally. I wondered how a belief in a God of war (Odin), might contribute to his negative behaviours. There were two of your fellow pagans who chose to respond and engage in some fruitful and constructive discussion. The point was well made that there are badly behaved people in any group and there are many other dimensions about a belief system in Odin that should be considered.

I hope that helps. I have thought quite a lot about why pagans would be concerned regarding the rise of yet another Abrahamic Faith. The last three, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity have been extremely brutal to pagans so I understand your concern about a possible hidden anti-pagan agenda amongst the Baha'is. There isn't one to my knowledge and I've been a Baha'i over 25 years.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would say that I'm a neo-tribalist in that I believe humans tend to function better in smaller groups and communities, where the ties are much stronger and where more cohesion exists. So I support things like smaller towns over huge cities.

It is IMO very much true that this cohesion of smaller groups is a badly needed resource, without which there is little sense in even considering wider scopes.

That said, thinking globaly is very much a necessity as well. As you seem to agree at some level when you mention the need to control our ridiculously high birth rates.