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What is or who is "God"?

What is or who is "God"?
My relationship with Christianity is long and confused. It certainly didn't start early in my life because neither of my parents were believers. The first time that Christianity disturbed my life was at school where it was imposed with little discussion and therefore was perceived as an inconvenience. When I left the Army I visited a few churches local to our house in Oxford but that went nowhere.

My next experience with religion strangely enough was triggered by my daughter when one day she decided that she wanted to join the choir and of she trotted. I like to believe in “signs” and I took this as a sign that I should go to church as well. I don’t remember how long that lasted.

Eventually, in about 1970 I started studying with the Open University and spent a year or so taking a module on theology. My main thoughts on the course was that it was based on attempting to prove or disprove the existence of God by logic and beautiful as such arguments were I was not impressed because I thought that one cannot prove such matters by logic such as, “Someone or some being must have created this world”. One either believes or does not.

Arguments for the existence of God that I met studying at the Open University.
Ontological argument.

Anselm's ontological argument purports to be an a priori proof of God's existence. Anselm starts with premises that do not depend on experience for their justification and then proceeds by purely logical means to the conclusion that God exists.

Cosmological argument taken from Wikipedia.
In natural theology and philosophy, a cosmological argument is an argument in which the existence of a unique being, generally seen as some kind of god, is deduced or inferred from facts or alleged facts concerning causation, change, motion, contingency, or finitude in respect of the universe as a whole or processes within it.

The history of this argument goes back to Aristotle or earlier, was developed in Neoplatonism and early Christianity and later in medieval Islamic theology during the 9th to 12th centuries, and re-introduced to medieval Christian theology in the 13th century by Thomas Aquinas. The cosmological argument is closely related to the principle of sufficient reason as addressed by Gottfried Leibniz and Samuel Clarke, itself a modern exposition of the claim that "nothing comes from nothing" attributed to Parmenides.

Heaven, the afterlife, call it what you will.
I actually discussed this concept with my son and it covered what happens when one dies. We couldn’t accept that Heaven was up in the fluffy clouds where we would meet up with all our relatives and friends if we had behaved ourselves and we reached the provisional conclusion that Heaven was a collection of all that was good about those whom we had loved in some form of spirit but we knew that was a very loose description.

Why raise the question of God now?
I have been going to church again for the simple reason that I felt that I needed to so I waited until an Easter time a year or so ago and the question arose in my mind when a prayer was being made, “Just who or what am I attempting to communicate with?” Perhaps cynically, I thought that most of those in church may well pray to God but they had never given any thought to just who or what God was. So, there we are. I lay in bed or sit in my sofa and pose the same question to myself and I’m going nowhere with it. It would be so much simpler if I could have a C. S. Lewis experience where he wrote that he resisted the call from God and it was with reluctance that he eventually gave in.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Christian monopolisation of religion in the West really gets me down sometimes.

This is all wonderful, but this is not a Christian forum.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
To understand the Gospel message of Christ, I had to leave the orthodox way of thinking (church, Bible) and pursue a path of focused Christian scriptures (Canon and non Canon). Once brought together without the influence of the OT, the knowledge becomes spiritual (truth) over fleshly stories and content. It's more like a users manual for the mind (of a loving, spiritual God). Not about some god killing, giving land and promising certain people imaginary gifts.

The Christian God can only be understood by Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Jews thought that their fathers dealt with god directly. Which Jesus refuted.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why raise the question of God now?
I have been going to church again for the simple reason that I felt that I needed to
That may be a simple question, but the answer to that is not. Why are you feeling a need to? What is the impulse towards seeking to find? I think the answers to what God is for you will be found in these questions.

Perhaps cynically, I thought that most of those in church may well pray to God but they had never given any thought to just who or what God was.
I think this is not inaccurate at all. God stands as an object of belief in the minds of most people's thinking, not an actual reality they themselves participate within. With the former, how you believe is paramount. With the latter how you believe is incidental. It's the difference between being religious and being spiritual.

So, there we are. I lay in bed or sit in my sofa and pose the same question to myself and I’m going nowhere with it.
That that is going nowhere, is part of your progress. :)

It would be so much simpler if I could have a C. S. Lewis experience where he wrote that he resisted the call from God and it was with reluctance that he eventually gave in.
Your experience depends on you being you. If anything to offer, trying to find answers about the nature of God by looking to arguments and beliefs and the opinions of others about God, will only tell you about what they believe. Most of them are only repeating arguments they've adopted, and not speaking from a place of personal understanding arrived at through their own process.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
What is or who is "God"?
Arguments for the existence of God
Heaven, the afterlife, call it what you will.
Why raise the question of God

I think it is important to appreciate above everything else God is just a word. What the word means is very subjective and different for each person. Many people share a broad meaning for the word God. But since we do not all experience God in reality the same way we experience "apples" what the word God means varies greatly. This is because the word God only exists in our use of words and language. For many atheists looking for evidence for the existence of God this is a bad thing. For most theists who have faith in God the lack of evidence for the existence of God is irrelevant. Having faith in God is a belief system. There are many types and categories of belief systems.

I believe each person has their own dogma or belief system. Dogmas are built on a set of assumptions or axioms accepted as being true without any evidence. For example, one axiom of a belief system could be, "God exists". Another could be "The Abrahamic God of the Old Testament exists." If you do not share another persons axioms then you will think they are crazy when they talk. This is because every sentence we speak must be aligned with the axioms of our own belief system to be considered not an insane thing to say. With my way of thinking about dogma means there is more than one path to God. All religions are true by themselves but wrong relative to each other because they do not share the same set of axioms.

Belief systems are important because they are the filter through which we experience our lives. If you want to have a happy meaningful life with divine purpose then you have to have a belief system that supports it. The problem with modern thought is the idea of nihilism. This is the idea that everything in the Universe is just patterns of energy swirling around following the laws of physics where no one pattern of energy is any more meaningful than any other. The nihilist doesn't believe in God. The nihilist believes everything we do is absolutely meaningless and insignificant on the cosmic timescale. Nihilist do not have any belief system. No axiom is worthy enough to be respected.

The best argument I've read against nihilism is the following. If everything in existence is meaningless, then it is also meaningless that it is meaningless. Therefore, we might as well choose meaningful over meaningless. I think it is important to see a distinction between "decisions" and "choices". Many atheists and nihilists want to make a "decision" about God based on evidence. As a person of faith, my faith is stronger than the lack of evidence. The lack of evidence means nothing to me. This is because I am making a "choice". Some choices are made based on no-reason. Some choices are just a choice. Some people are incapable of making choices.

The idea of making a real "choice" is very important in my way of thinking. Let me give you an example of a choice I made several years ago. In my circle of friends many are football, baseball, and basketball coaches. One of our friends moved away and I got invited to play in a fantasy football league. I generally do not care for football. I had not watch it for years. So I was very hesitant to join this fantasy football league. It was like eating dog food to me. Then I thought this is opportunity to do something based on a real "choice" because I had really no good reason to do this. So I decided to eat the dog food and told them, "Sure, I will join." And to my surprise I absolutely love playing fantasy football. It is one of favorite hobbies now.

Based on my life experiences, I think you can "choose" what axioms make up your belief system. I think just like choosing to participate in fantasy football the same is true with having faith in God or becoming a member of a particular religion. It's not a decision. It has to be a choice based on "no reason". People have to choose to have faith in God. And besides, what difference does it make if everything is all meaningless on the cosmic timescale. If your choices do not matter then you might as well make choices that give you the best possible chance to have a rewarding, happy, and meaningful life with divine implications. Some atheist and nihilists will argue their own choices are the best ones. But most atheists and nihilists I know are immature unhappy a holes with no real happiness or connection to other people and community. They are too busy being self-centered trying to prove just how much smarter they are compared to everyone else and that their own way of thinking is the only sane way of thinking.

To answer your questions: God exists. I will prove it to you. God is just a word. What the word means doesn't matter. God exists in our use of words and language. God is different than every other word in our dictionary because God represents every possible thought and experience that has or will ever occur. When everyone dies we go into the light, look into the face of God, and experience eternal Heavenly bliss. Answering the question of God gives us divine meaning in our lives, as opposed to, nihilism. Choosing to have a belief system based on faith is delusional on one level but who cares if it gives you divine meaning in your life as opposed to the negativity of nihilism. We create the way we experience our lives. We might as well make a conscious effort to experience our lives with style.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Sounds like you've had quite the journey so far! You get to decide for yourself what conception of god(s) is meaningful or resonates for you. May inspiration continue to guide you down a fulfilling path. :D
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
What is or who is "God"?
My relationship with Christianity is long and confused. It certainly didn't start early in my life because neither of my parents were believers. The first time that Christianity disturbed my life was at school where it was imposed with little discussion and therefore was perceived as an inconvenience. When I left the Army I visited a few churches local to our house in Oxford but that went nowhere.

My next experience with religion strangely enough was triggered by my daughter when one day she decided that she wanted to join the choir and of she trotted. I like to believe in “signs” and I took this as a sign that I should go to church as well. I don’t remember how long that lasted.

Eventually, in about 1970 I started studying with the Open University and spent a year or so taking a module on theology. My main thoughts on the course was that it was based on attempting to prove or disprove the existence of God by logic and beautiful as such arguments were I was not impressed because I thought that one cannot prove such matters by logic such as, “Someone or some being must have created this world”. One either believes or does not.

Arguments for the existence of God that I met studying at the Open University.
Ontological argument.

Anselm's ontological argument purports to be an a priori proof of God's existence. Anselm starts with premises that do not depend on experience for their justification and then proceeds by purely logical means to the conclusion that God exists.

Cosmological argument taken from Wikipedia.
In natural theology and philosophy, a cosmological argument is an argument in which the existence of a unique being, generally seen as some kind of god, is deduced or inferred from facts or alleged facts concerning causation, change, motion, contingency, or finitude in respect of the universe as a whole or processes within it.

The history of this argument goes back to Aristotle or earlier, was developed in Neoplatonism and early Christianity and later in medieval Islamic theology during the 9th to 12th centuries, and re-introduced to medieval Christian theology in the 13th century by Thomas Aquinas. The cosmological argument is closely related to the principle of sufficient reason as addressed by Gottfried Leibniz and Samuel Clarke, itself a modern exposition of the claim that "nothing comes from nothing" attributed to Parmenides.

Heaven, the afterlife, call it what you will.
I actually discussed this concept with my son and it covered what happens when one dies. We couldn’t accept that Heaven was up in the fluffy clouds where we would meet up with all our relatives and friends if we had behaved ourselves and we reached the provisional conclusion that Heaven was a collection of all that was good about those whom we had loved in some form of spirit but we knew that was a very loose description.

Why raise the question of God now?
I have been going to church again for the simple reason that I felt that I needed to so I waited until an Easter time a year or so ago and the question arose in my mind when a prayer was being made, “Just who or what am I attempting to communicate with?” Perhaps cynically, I thought that most of those in church may well pray to God but they had never given any thought to just who or what God was. So, there we are. I lay in bed or sit in my sofa and pose the same question to myself and I’m going nowhere with it. It would be so much simpler if I could have a C. S. Lewis experience where he wrote that he resisted the call from God and it was with reluctance that he eventually gave in.

Why ask such a broad question and then limit yourself to considering only one version of the thousands of versions of the Christian god, which is itself only one version of thousands of gods?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Greetings!

I know nuthin about this God stuff.
But I know....
th


Have some!
 
I think it is important to appreciate above everything else God is just a word. What the word means is very subjective and different for each person. Many people share a broad meaning for the word God. But since we do not all experience God in reality the same way we experience "apples" what the word God means varies greatly. This is because the word God only exists in our use of words and language. For many atheists looking for evidence for the existence of God this is a bad thing. For most theists who have faith in God the lack of evidence for the existence of God is irrelevant. Having faith in God is a belief system. There are many types and categories of belief systems.

I believe each person has their own dogma or belief system. Dogmas are built on a set of assumptions or axioms accepted as being true without any evidence. For example, one axiom of a belief system could be, "God exists". Another could be "The Abrahamic God of the Old Testament exists." If you do not share another persons axioms then you will think they are crazy when they talk. This is because every sentence we speak must be aligned with the axioms of our own belief system to be considered not an insane thing to say. With my way of thinking about dogma means there is more than one path to God. All religions are true by themselves but wrong relative to each other because they do not share the same set of axioms.

Belief systems are important because they are the filter through which we experience our lives. If you want to have a happy meaningful life with divine purpose then you have to have a belief system that supports it. The problem with modern thought is the idea of nihilism. This is the idea that everything in the Universe is just patterns of energy swirling around following the laws of physics where no one pattern of energy is any more meaningful than any other. The nihilist doesn't believe in God. The nihilist believes everything we do is absolutely meaningless and insignificant on the cosmic timescale. Nihilist do not have any belief system. No axiom is worthy enough to be respected.

The best argument I've read against nihilism is the following. If everything in existence is meaningless, then it is also meaningless that it is meaningless. Therefore, we might as well choose meaningful over meaningless. I think it is important to see a distinction between "decisions" and "choices". Many atheists and nihilists want to make a "decision" about God based on evidence. As a person of faith, my faith is stronger than the lack of evidence. The lack of evidence means nothing to me. This is because I am making a "choice". Some choices are made based on no-reason. Some choices are just a choice. Some people are incapable of making choices.

The idea of making a real "choice" is very important in my way of thinking. Let me give you an example of a choice I made several years ago. In my circle of friends many are football, baseball, and basketball coaches. One of our friends moved away and I got invited to play in a fantasy football league. I generally do not care for football. I had not watch it for years. So I was very hesitant to join this fantasy football league. It was like eating dog food to me. Then I thought this is opportunity to do something based on a real "choice" because I had really no good reason to do this. So I decided to eat the dog food and told them, "Sure, I will join." And to my surprise I absolutely love playing fantasy football. It is one of favorite hobbies now.

Based on my life experiences, I think you can "choose" what axioms make up your belief system. I think just like choosing to participate in fantasy football the same is true with having faith in God or becoming a member of a particular religion. It's not a decision. It has to be a choice based on "no reason". People have to choose to have faith in God. And besides, what difference does it make if everything is all meaningless on the cosmic timescale. If your choices do not matter then you might as well make choices that give you the best possible chance to have a rewarding, happy, and meaningful life with divine implications. Some atheist and nihilists will argue their own choices are the best ones. But most atheists and nihilists I know are immature unhappy a holes with no real happiness or connection to other people and community. They are too busy being self-centered trying to prove just how much smarter they are compared to everyone else and that their own way of thinking is the only sane way of thinking.

To answer your questions: God exists. I will prove it to you. God is just a word. What the word means doesn't matter. God exists in our use of words and language. God is different than every other word in our dictionary because God represents every possible thought and experience that has or will ever occur. When everyone dies we go into the light, look into the face of God, and experience eternal Heavenly bliss. Answering the question of God gives us divine meaning in our lives, as opposed to, nihilism. Choosing to have a belief system based on faith is delusional on one level but who cares if it gives you divine meaning in your life as opposed to the negativity of nihilism. We create the way we experience our lives. We might as well make a conscious effort to experience our lives with style.
 
“I think it is important to appreciate above everything else God is just a word.”
I am unable to accept that statement because such a word cannot be subjective its very meaning must be precise and meaningful.

This is because the word God only exists in our use of words and language.
It depends what one means by, “Exists” I would refer you to the term, “What ever exists must exist in some quantity which I think derives from, Francis Galton

For most theists who have faith in God the lack of evidence for the existence of God is irrelevant.
This is a term which I might be able to accept, however, I’m not able to accept that a “theist” has to assume that it is a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. That is a step to far for me.

I believe each person has their own dogma or belief system. Dogmas are built on a set of assumptions or axioms accepted as being true without any evidence.
People may well have their own dogma or belief system. However, when one is relating to “God” there can only be one true and valid belief system

Belief systems are important because they are the filter through which we experience our lives.
I find it impossible to identify a necessary or sufficient reason to accept what you say in that I consider that it is possible to identify a belief system independent of such criteria.

The best argument I've read against nihilism is the following. If everything in existence is meaningless, then it is also meaningless that it is meaningless.
You are reducing the concept of nihilism to a matter of logic and that is not a valid proposal.

The idea of making a real "choice" is very important in my way of thinking.
I’m not sure that it is possible to have a choice when it comes down to a belief in “God”.

Based on my life experiences, I think you can "choose" what axioms make up your belief system.
I am obliged to suggest that such a statement or proposition cannot be regarded as being either established, accepted, or self-evidently true.

I think just like choosing to participate in fantasy football the same is true with having faith in God or becoming a member of a particular religion. It's not a decision. It has to be a choice based on "no reason". People have to choose to have faith in God.
I would like to believe that such a decision can actually be imposed on one by, “God” or is that simply refusing to accept participating in a decision making process?

To answer your questions: God exists. I will prove it to you. God is just a word. What the word means doesn't matter. God exists in our use of words and language.
It is impossible to prove to me that “God” exists because I, the person attempting to make contact with “God” can do that.

God is different than every other word in our dictionary because God represents every possible thought and experience that has or will ever occur.
I have to reject such a thought because that reduces the whole concept of freewill to a nonsense.

When everyone dies we go into the light, look into the face of God, and experience eternal Heavenly bliss.
I have yet to accept that there is a “God” what “God” is or even if “God” exists.

Answering the question of God gives us divine meaning in our lives, as opposed to, nihilism.
Surely, if one believes in “God” such a belief has to include having a belief system based on the faith of which “God” has to be a part of.

We create the way we experience our lives.
Of course we don’t. The way we experience our lives is imposed upon us.
 
If you consider that the thread should be elsewhere I have no problem with that but as it was my first post it seem OK to me.
As I said above, "It would be so much simpler if I could have a C. S. Lewis experience where he wrote that he resisted the call from God and it was with reluctance that he eventually gave in."
The reason that I said that was because I read it in one of my C.S. Lewis books many years ago but could not remember which one.
I mentioned it to my son-in-law who is a practicing Christian whom I had also asked the question that I posted on this forum. He is a remarkable man but tragically dying from Motor Neuron disease. Today I received a book from him, "Jesus for Sceptics" Michael Green with a piece of paper sticking out at the top and there it was, the piece from the C.S. Lewis book "Surprised by Joy". "In the Trinity term of 1929 I gave in and admitted God was God, and knelt and prayed:
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
“I think it is important to appreciate above everything else God is just a word.”
I am unable to accept that statement because such a word cannot be subjective its very meaning must be precise and meaningful.

Words do not have precise meanings. Words have many connotative meanings. I am confused why you would ever think language is so precise. Language is full of ambiguities and lack of precision. Language is a representation of ideas and reality. Language is not exactly what it represents. Language is like a road map. No matter how much detail the road map may have, there's an infinite amount of more detail in reality.

The same thing is true with the word God. There are as many interpretations about what the word God means as there are people. I'm surprise you would be so Bertrand Russell in your thinking about systems of thought. Your way of thinking is a hundred years too old.

This is because the word God only exists in our use of words and language.
It depends what one means by, “Exists” I would refer you to the term, “What ever exists must exist in some quantity which I think derives from, Francis Galton

If people stop using the word "God" in sentences, then God would cease to exist. This is the atheist idea of having a lack of belief.

For most theists who have faith in God the lack of evidence for the existence of God is irrelevant.
This is a term which I might be able to accept, however, I’m not able to accept that a “theist” has to assume that it is a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. That is a step to far for me.

I think we can agree about the definition of theist. A deist is a theist nevertheless.

I believe each person has their own dogma or belief system. Dogmas are built on a set of assumptions or axioms accepted as being true without any evidence.
People may well have their own dogma or belief system. However, when one is relating to “God” there can only be one true and valid belief system

You do realize by having the axiom in your dogma, "there can only be one true and valid belief system" is proving my point about each person having their own dogma. Not everyone has the same axioms that you choose to be true without any evidence or proof of their validity. The funny thing about common sense is it is purely subjective.

Belief systems are important because they are the filter through which we experience our lives.
I find it impossible to identify a necessary or sufficient reason to accept what you say in that I consider that it is possible to identify a belief system independent of such criteria.

If you have a belief, "I am fat and ugly", it will color the way you experience every moment of your life. Each of us has a set of beliefs to the core of our being based on our life experiences which determine how we subjectively experience every moment of our lives.

The best argument I've read against nihilism is the following. If everything in existence is meaningless, then it is also meaningless that it is meaningless.
You are reducing the concept of nihilism to a matter of logic and that is not a valid proposal.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that the concept of nihilism is not bounded by the rules of language. If you are defending nihilism as a great way of being then you need psychological help.

The idea of making a real "choice" is very important in my way of thinking.
I’m not sure that it is possible to have a choice when it comes down to a belief in “God”.

I don't think any one person is the master authority about the meaning of the word "God". I think it is the height of human hubris and possibly man's greatest possible sin to pretend to know the mind of God or to speak for God. You have no way to prove objectively what is the correct choice when it comes to belief in "God". Every person experiences "God" in their own way based on subjective experiences. We have no way to experience God objectively the way each of us experiences an "apple". Therefore, God only exists in our imaginations.

Based on my life experiences, I think you can "choose" what axioms make up your belief system.
I am obliged to suggest that such a statement or proposition cannot be regarded as being either established, accepted, or self-evidently true.

What a load of pompous BS. We certainly can program our own belief systems. People do it all the time. When we don't do it, people do it for us with propaganda. You need to study the works of Edward Bernays:


You might find this video interesting on nihilism:


I think just like choosing to participate in fantasy football the same is true with having faith in God or becoming a member of a particular religion. It's not a decision. It has to be a choice based on "no reason". People have to choose to have faith in God.
I would like to believe that such a decision can actually be imposed on one by, “God” or is that simply refusing to accept participating in a decision making process?

You certainly can have that as an axiom to your dogma. I would not argue with what axioms you choose to accept as being true without proof.

To answer your questions: God exists. I will prove it to you. God is just a word. What the word means doesn't matter. God exists in our use of words and language.
It is impossible to prove to me that “God” exists because I, the person attempting to make contact with “God” can do that.

The word "God" exists. No one denies the existence of the word "God." Anything beyond the existence of the word itself requires faith. And what faith you choose to have is your dogma.

God is different than every other word in our dictionary because God represents every possible thought and experience that has or will ever occur.
I have to reject such a thought because that reduces the whole concept of freewill to a nonsense.

So far you have rejected everything I've said. So it make sense you reject my subjective semantics for the word God. In terms of freewill, most Eastern religions claim freewill is a delusion because you have no control over the choices you can make. Unless we each have omnipotent powers, none of us truly has free-will because we have no control over the list of choices we can make.

But this is not what I mean by God represents the alpha and omega of every possibility. If you accept the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, then there are an infinite number of alternate Universes in which each choice you could possibly make gets played out with every other possible choice. Every quantum state is realized over the entire multiverse. So with this much bigger way of thinking about reality, everything in this Universe is deterministic. But over the entire multiverse each of us has free-will.

So based on this idea of free-will and determinism both being true at the same time, what we are to God is God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing our experiences of joys and frustrations. God's omnipotence is realized by the existence of the multiverse and all the choices we could possibly make.

Of course, these ideas require you to accept a number of difficult axioms you are most likely unwilling to accept as being true.

When everyone dies we go into the light, look into the face of God, and experience eternal Heavenly bliss.
I have yet to accept that there is a “God” what “God” is or even if “God” exists.

This is because you have chosen not to have any faith in a particular type of God. If you are looking for "evidence" for the existence of God then you are trying to make a "decision" about God. As I said, having faith is a "choice" based on no-reason.

Answering the question of God gives us divine meaning in our lives, as opposed to, nihilism.
Surely, if one believes in “God” such a belief has to include having a belief system based on the faith of which “God” has to be a part of.

Belief systems are based on some number of axioms. People choose which ones they considered divine. Just consider the Mormons or the Scientologists. You probably think their way of thinking is insane. This is because you do not share the same set of axioms of belief.

We create the way we experience our lives.
Of course we don’t. The way we experience our lives is imposed upon us.

You do realize you are the person authoring the belief you have no control over how you experience your life. No matter what your belief system is, you have to admit there will always be an equal amount of evidence in the World to support a pessimistic outlook as opposed to an optimistic one. Your belief system is like seeing pictures of animals in clouds. You experience your reality exactly how you expect it to be.
 
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