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Featured What happens to our body after we die?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I am transferring my posts that accidentally got posted in the wrong directory to this directory. :oops:
    There are three posts in this series.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    That is just how you interpret the story because that is what you want to believe. You interpret it to mean physical life of the body but I interpret it differently. I interpret it to mean eternal life of the soul.

    25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

    This verse says nothing about physical life, it just says life; and given everything else Jesus said about spiritual life it is obvious to me that is what it refers to.

    26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

    It is obvious this verse means that everyone who is living and exercises faith in Jesus shall never die spiritually, because we know all people die physically.
    None of these verses say anything about physical bodies. Dead bodies do not come out of graves and come back to life. The only place we rise to is the spiritual kingdom. We won’t need physical bodies there, we will have spiritual bodies.
    That is how you interpret Genesis. To say that we never would have died is not to say we never would have died physically. It is to say we never would have died spiritually, if Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of good and evil, thus knowing what evil was and being able to choose evil.

    We all have free will, so we all choose to act according to one of these two natures. By our choices and ensuing behavior, we start to differentiate ourselves, and we wind up on a continuum between good and evil.

    All imperfection comes from our physical nature; our spiritual nature is purely good.

    Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
    Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

    The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
    Some Answered Questions, p. 118

    When humans do not partake of the "tree of life" they start to die spiritually. They would have died physically regardless, because physical bodies were designed to die.

    Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

    What is the Tree of Life?

    “In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?


    Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm.

    It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

    “The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”
    Some Answered Questions, p. 124

    From: 30: ADAM AND EVE
     
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  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Now you sound like an atheist I know who says “God can do anything” as their reasoning as to why God could get rid of evil and suffering so humans won’t have to do anything for themselves, or “God can do anything” so God can communicate with everyone directly, so there would be no need for a mediator such as Jesus or Baha’u’llah.

    As I say to atheists, God being omnipotent means God can do anything but the converse also applies; it also means that God does not do anything God does not choose to do.

    Moreover “God can do anything” does not mean that God is obligated to do everything God can do and it certainly does not mean that God is going to do what humans want Him to do. God only does what God chooses to do.

    For what possible reason would God manufacture new humans so that they could live on this earth forever? Moreover, if God brought back all the dead humans, how would they all live on this planet unless a whole bunch of living people die, given there are not enough resources for that many people to live on earth? Moreover, how can new humans be born and get to experience life on this earth if there is no room for them?

    Space and resources are limited on earth because it is a physical realm but there are no space limitations in the spiritual realm so it can accommodate everyone who has ever lived or who will ever live. That is how God designed it, so there would be a Kingdom of God on earth and a Kingdom of God in heaven (the spiritual world), one for the physically living and one for those who have died.

    “The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.”

    The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 10
    These prophecies from Isaiah certainly are about earth, the new earth that future generations will inhabit, also known as the New Jerusalem.

    Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

    What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.
    God has blessed this arrangement and indeed it will be like a paradise on earth during this age, the Golden Age. This age was ushered in by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

    “God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

    All of the Isaiah 35 prophecies were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

    Below are a few Bible prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah, but there are many more. Keep in mind that the Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel...

    From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

    Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centres for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. He said:

    “The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

    “It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).


    “And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

    Again in the chapter preceding the one in which he, Isaiah, promises that God will raise up a ‘righteous man from the East’, he foretells:

    “And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 40:5).

    "In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

    Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.


    There are already many other worlds just waiting for human habitation and we will surely find out about them after we die.

    “As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range.None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.’”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 151-152

    “O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes.You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

    “If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 156
     
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Where did you get these ideas? They are sure not shared by any Christians I know. Almost all Christians are waiting to go to heaven. Only a few believe that they will live forever on earth.

    Did you ever read this book, written by a Christian? Heaven and Hell

    He broke away from the orthodox Christianity and he was not a Trinitarian. In fact, he said that Trinitarians would not even recognize God in heaven. He believed that Jesus ruled heaven.
    I do not see how that is possible because the earth cannot accommodate that many people.
    It is not about what there needs to be, it is about what is, what God created. The soul is a sign of God and it never dies, it lives forever, but those who are far from God will become victims to self and passion and will sink into the depths, which could be thought of as spiritual death or hell.

    “Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
    It was never the job of Baha’u’llah to build the Kingdom of God on earth, it will be the job of humans to build that, following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah revealed. The Messianic Age is an age that will unfold over a long period of time and we are only at the beginning of it, and it will get worse before it gets better. Humanity did not get this way overnight and it humanity is not going to suddenly be changed in an instant. The old world order has to fall down before a new world order can rise in its stead, and the old world order is crumbling all over the world right now.

    This is a fantasy that Jesus is going to come floating down from heaven on the clouds with an army who will restore the wicked and redeem mankind. Mankind has to redeem itself and that is why we have free will… God has never done the work for us so there is no reason to believe that God suddenly decided to do an about face. That would be out of character for God.

    All those verses about trumpets and angels are allegorical, not literal. The trumpets sounded alright when the Bab and Baha’u’lalh came to earth, and everyone who was where they sounded heard them, it was quite a tumult.

    There is no competition between Jesus and Baha’u’llah because they are both the same Spirit of God.
    You want to turn back the clock to what the earth was like 6000 years ago but that is not possible nor what God ever intended. Humans progress over time, they do not regress. As humans change society changes the way people live also has to change.

    You cannot know that there is no better place than this earth because you have not seen what is in the spiritual world. Moreover, many people see this world as a torture chamber, a storehouse of suffering. There is no material world that will not be without suffering, because the material world is the cause of all our suffering. Only after we enter the spiritual world will there be no more suffering, if we played our cards right in this world, which is preparation for the spiritual world.

    I am sure it is better than this world but we have not been told what it is like because we could not understand it from this life and also because if we did know what it is like we would long for death. There is a story of a man who knew Baha’u’llah and he insisted that Baha’u’llah tell him what the spiritual world was like, but Baha’u’llah refused. Finally Baha’u’llah gave in to his request and the man committed suicide.

    “The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    One of the most surprising videos I have watched is this from Peter Fenwick, a
    neurologist and clinical psychologist. He looks at what I would call the
    pre-death experience. Having had something similar in my own experience I
    would happily recommend watching this.

     
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  5. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Our body is either cremated and reduced to ashes, or rots in a grave, FACT!
     
  6. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    Unless you're not buried or a wild animal eats all the flesh from the tips of the toes to the top of the head.
     
  7. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    @Trailblazer
    Nothing happens to the body after death. The body remains dead.
    After a person's body has died, the soul either enters the pre-hell or pre-Paradise. There the soul of the person must remain until the Day of Judgement. The pre-hell is, for example, mentioned in Luke 16:19-31. The angels who had sexual intercourse with human women (Genesis 6:1-4) were also thrown into the pre-hell.(2 Peter 2:4)

    Luke 12:4
    I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
     
  8. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
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    Decomposition...

    ...provided my body was ever real to begin with and not just a reality conjured up in my consciousness. :)
     
  9. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    We all could be characters in a computer game, being played by an intelligent alien on another planet.:D
     
  10. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Then our pixels get reused after we die, one moment you are the guy firing the gun at the zombie and then the next moment you become the gun
     
  11. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    "When humans do not partake of the "tree of life" they start to die spiritually."

    Ok so here is a man and there is the tree. Big gap!!!! Can you see it?

    Now we will simplify there is a man and there is his brain? Can ypu see that?

    So the man says" my brain" in the second one. The tree of life in the first one. So there is a huge gap what is the causality of this gap?

    St francis himself called the tree "family of god" saint francis draws himself as a part of that tree. Je does not go "i think" no i think in st fracisis drawings. He is correct.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Thanks so much. I had time to listen to a little of it but not much, but I will watch all of it as soon as I have time. :)
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I agree that after we die the body remains dead. The soul leaves the body after the body dies. It is possible that some souls go straight to heaven but most souls probably go to a waiting area and I guess that could be thought of as a pre-hell or pre-Paradise.

    In the book entitled Heaven and Hell Swedenborg calls this waiting area the World of Spirits and he says this is where most people go right after they die. It is in that world where people are assisted by angels to possibly get to heaven or if they cannot be helped they wind up in hell.
    I do not believe it is Jesus who has the authority to cast anyone into hell. I believe only God has that authority but I do not know if God uses that authority because I believe that we make our own hell by what we believed and how we lived.

    “He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
     
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    The Tree of Life is not a real tree. It is the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation, Christ. This Tree of Life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.

    It is through this Tree of Life that we gain eternal life of the soul.
     
  15. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Word of God

    Ok i am done with literary worship. Sorry cult no matter what religion globally.
    Might as well say the great pi in the sky math did it to me. Nonsense.
     
  16. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    He has the authority. Jesus Himself says in Revelation 1:17-18 that He has the keys of death and hell.
    Jesus Himself is God.
     
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  17. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus was a god then all humans are gods, as he was a mere flawed human like the rest of us.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    We all interpret verses differently I do not interpret those verses the way you do.
    I do not believe that Jesus is God incarnate because the Essence of God cannot be revealed in flesh.
    Jesus is God's attributes manifested perfectly in the flesh.

    “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    That's true, unless you are embalmed, or graphite frozen like in Star Wars.
    But you ought to watch the video of Peter Fenwick. He's an atheist but he
    documents what happens to people as they die, and people who can relate
    observations and experiences when they have zero brain function.
    Having a near death experience myself I feel this issue is nuanced.
    70% of Dutch nurses and hospice workers report paranormal events with
    dying people.
     
  20. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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