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What exactly is Islamophobia?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Jews, Christians, Muslims even, probably most of them to ever live have viewed much of those stories as stories. Like the Garden of Eden and Creation. That's not usually interpreted literally.
But believing those things isn't what defines adherents of those religions. Jews, for example, have a specific set of codes and functions in relation to serving their god and having that larger community. Christians set out to follow the example set by Jesus of Nazareth, who they believe is a promised messiah and son of their god. Muslims believe much of that, but make Jesus into a prophet and add Muhammad as another.
In all honesty, I have to ask how well acquainted you are with Islam.

This haste in grouping it with Christianity and Judaism strongly suggests that you do not know it very well at all.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
In all honesty, I have to ask how well acquainted you are with Islam.

This haste in grouping it with Christianity and Judaism strongly suggests that you do not know it very well at all.
There are indeed ways they do belong to a larger group, that being they are subservient to Abraham's God and claim the prophets such as Moses and Isaiah. And in this regard it's to demonstrate lots of them don't take their holy book literally. A flying horse? That isn't literally believed by all Muslims.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
As I said, obvious trolling responses will be ignored. How do you feel about the qur'an telling the male in charge of you to beat you if you're disobedient?
Respect a trollish OP made a member with a history of making a thread against something in Islam and disappearing for awhile until the next thread of the same nature?
How do you feel about failing to produce anything of substance? How do you fail about failing to do anything that gets off the ground because it's hyperfocused on one very specific thing and not even doing that well?
 

Viker

Häxan
Simply, it's singling out and emphasizing the negatives one perceives attached to Muslims or Islam in general.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
As a basic principle it's really straight forward, and no different to that for any other form of undue discrimination. In general it is about treating people differently (generally negatively) on the basis of their being Muslim (or you thinking they're Muslim even if they're not - an important aspect often overlooked).

The Qur'an tells Muslims to treat others differently - "Do not take unbelievers for friends and allies". Negativity towards unbelievers is expressed hundreds of times. The Qur'an is built on differentiating believer from unbeliever.

Obviously there are practical complications and grey areas but the principle is simple. Basically, you need to consider how you'd feel if someone treated you in the same way (without dismissing it as impossible because you don't think there is anything negative about your beliefs - that doesn't prevent discrimination against you).

That isn't the only thing you dislike about Islam and Muslims is it? This isn't about individual points you might choose to pick out to support your position.

You have the cause and effect backwards. I didn't have a negative opinion of Islam until I read the Qur'an. The verses I quote do not "support" my position - they created it.

After all, Muslims could pick out a more positive extracts from their scripture as a basis for saying Islam is good.

Define good. When 9:29 tells them fight the unbelievers until they surrender, they call doing so 'good' because their god demands it of them. I don't call it good.

It's about a wider pattern of day-to-day behaviour, conscious and subconscious, and it is about how you treat people rather than books. Do you assume everyone who is Muslim (or who you think is Muslim) supports that specific text? Do you assume all Muslim husbands beat their wives? And significantly, do you treat people of other religions or faiths in similar ways, on the basis of singular apparently negative scripture, concepts or history (which they pretty much all could be accused of in a similar way after all).

I only know what they're told to believe and do. I try to assume nothing about individuals until they give me reason. For example, I considered a Muslim co-worker a friend until he told me that he admired Hitler for what he did to the Jews. Until he said that, I had no idea he felt that way.
 
The Qur'an tells Muslims to treat others differently - "Do not take unbelievers for friends and allies". Negativity towards unbelievers is expressed hundreds of times. The Qur'an is built on differentiating believer from unbeliever.



You have the cause and effect backwards. I didn't have a negative opinion of Islam until I read the Qur'an. The verses I quote do not "support" my position - they created it.



Define good. When 9:29 tells them fight the unbelievers until they surrender, they call doing so 'good' because their god demands it of them. I don't call it good.



I only know what they're told to believe and do. I try to assume nothing about individuals until they give me reason. For example, I considered a Muslim co-worker a friend until he told me that he admired Hitler for what he did to the Jews. Until he said that, I had no idea he felt that way.

QED
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I’m not a fan of the term Islamophobia, but your approach to Islam does seem to be based on confirming your anti-Islamic prejudices and biases rather than any genuine attempt to understand Islam in a nuanced and fair manner.

Please tell me something I've said about the verses of the Qur'an that is wrong. Is it prejudiced to point out that 8:55 calls non-Muslims the worst of God's creatures? Is that not blatant hate-speech?

Imo there are 2 intellectually honest approaches:

1. Try to analyse Islam from a secular historical perspective

If you mean by typing the historical perspective to what the Qur'an says, then yes, I agree.

2. Making a good faith attempt understand what Muslims believe and why

What do you think reading the Qur'an is all about? When I started to read it, I did so to prove that Islam was a religion of peace and tolerance. Those good intentions didn't survive the second page. Nobody can honestly read from 2:6 onward and claim Islam is tolerant.

Your approach tends to be to decide how you personally think Muslims should interpret their scriptures (i.e. in the most negative way possible)

Nope. I just read the words and report what they say. Please tell how to interpret "God is the enemy of unbelievers (2:98)" in a friendly and tolerant manner.

sometimes combined with some cod-historical contextualisation where you just make up what you think the real Muhammad did (for example your Banu Qurayza thread).

Nice try. The fate of the Banu Quraiza is well established. You're not going to change the subject to that.

Your threads seem to be more an excuse to say "isn't Islam really bad" framed as a genuine attempt at discussion.

Yes, Islam IS really bad. No "framing" is necessary because I'm happy to discuss why I think that (Hint: read the Qur'an).

So dislike of certain aspects of Islam is not "Islamophobia", but displaying consistent prejudice and bias could be considered to be for those who favour the term.

Recognizing "prejudice and bias" and then exposing it is not in itself "prejudice and bias". Read 8:55 as many times as necessary to get it.
 
Please tell me something I've said about the verses of the Qur'an that is wrong. Is it prejudiced to point out that 8:55 calls non-Muslims the worst of God's creatures? Is that not blatant hate-speech?



If you mean by typing the historical perspective to what the Qur'an says, then yes, I agree.



What do you think reading the Qur'an is all about? When I started to read it, I did so to prove that Islam was a religion of peace and tolerance. Those good intentions didn't survive the second page. Nobody can honestly read from 2:6 onward and claim Islam is tolerant.



Nope. I just read the words and report what they say. Please tell how to interpret "God is the enemy of unbelievers (2:98)" in a friendly and tolerant manner.



Nice try. The fate of the Banu Quraiza is well established. You're not going to change the subject to that.



Yes, Islam IS really bad. No "framing" is necessary because I'm happy to discuss why I think that (Hint: read the Qur'an).



Recognizing "prejudice and bias" and then exposing it is not in itself "prejudice and bias". Read 8:55 as many times as necessary to get it.

Thank you for illustrating my points so clearly
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What do you think reading the Qur'an is all about? When I started to read it, I did so to prove that Islam was a religion of peace and tolerance. Those good intentions didn't survive the second page.
No, I'm pretty sure you just read some article on internet by someone prejudice against Muslims.
Al-Baqara 256. You may not know that one, and I would wager probably don't given your history here. It doesn't fit within your scope of hatred.
 
Lol. Thanks for illustrating that you have nothing but gratuitous innuendo. Goodbye. Now claim victory and ride away in a cloud of self-righteous indignation.

If you need it spelled out, religions are complex living traditions and aren't defined by looking at isolated passages of scripture and, based on your own prejudices and biases, deciding how you personally think Muslims should interpret them and what this should mean for their worldview overall.

This is your RF schtick and you are illustrating it consistently again in this thread.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The problem I have with that answer is that - in effect - it makes being a "Muslim" a meaningless term. If you don't think that the Quran is the perfect, timeless word of god, then what do you mean when you say you're a "Muslim"?

This is not about being a fundamentalist, this is about the most basic claims of Islam.
Well, yes. Yet you will still find different understandings with Muslims.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
If you need it spelled out, religions are complex living traditions

Okay, since you made a claim regarding the religion as opposed to your usual thinly veiled ad hominem, I'll respond.

Islam is NOT a "complex living tradition". It is what it has been for 1400 years, and what it will be 1400 years from now. The Qur'an exists for the purpose of creating and defining Islam. Nothing that you or anybody else says can ever change that.

and aren't defined by looking at isolated passages of scripture

Islam is defined by exactly 6,236 passages of scripture.

and, based on your own prejudices and biases, deciding how you personally think Muslims should interpret them and what this should mean for their worldview overall.

This is your RF schtick and you are illustrating it consistently again in this thread.

And back to the ad homs in lieu of argument.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Well, yes. Yet you will still find different understandings with Muslims.

Yes, because that's what people do. The Qur'an says that God has made a bargain with Muslims whereby they must "fight in the cause of God. Kill and be killed" in order to be granted entry into heaven (9:111). And what should not surprise anyone is that not all people born into Islam want to do that, so they 'interpret' the Qur'an differently. The more of them, the better. They may even be in the vast majority, but there are more than enough who actually believe that nonsense to be populating, funding, and cheering on no fewer than 185 currently operating jihad organisations. They are the problem, and they do what they do because the Qur'an tells them to.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
No, I'm pretty sure you just read some article on internet by someone prejudice against Muslims.
Al-Baqara 256. You may not know that one, and I would wager probably don't given your history here. It doesn't fit within your scope of hatred.

Read 2:254 - 257. You will see that it is speaking to Muslims about the obvious truth and infallibility of Allah's word to the extent that they will come to Islam on their own (they will not require compulsion). It has nothing to do with the lesser jihad of subduing unbelievers, and everything to do with the greater jihad of acceptance.

Hundreds of other verses then tell Muslims to obey Allah or burn in Hell with the unbelievers (3:85 for one of the best example). Verse 2:256 may say that compulsion is not necessary, but it sure as hell is continuously called for and rigorously applied.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Read 2:254 - 257. You will see that it is speaking to Muslims about the obvious truth and infallibility of Allah's word to the extent that they will come to Islam on their own (they will not require compulsion). It has nothing to do with the lesser jihad of subduing unbelievers, and everything to do with the greater jihad of acceptance.

Hundreds of other verses then tell Muslims to obey Allah or burn in Hell with the unbelievers (3:85 for one of the best example). Verse 2:256 may say that compulsion is not necessary, but it sure as hell is continuously called for and rigorously applied.
All I see is your bigotry.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes, because that's what people do. The Qur'an says that God has made a bargain with Muslims whereby they must "fight in the cause of God. Kill and be killed" in order to be granted entry into heaven (9:111). And what should not surprise anyone is that not all people born into Islam want to do that, so they 'interpret' the Qur'an differently. The more of them, the better. They may even be in the vast majority, but there are more than enough who actually believe that nonsense to be populating, funding, and cheering on no fewer than 185 currently operating jihad organisations. They are the problem, and they do what they do because the Qur'an tells them to.

No, they don't. The Qur'an can't actually tell them anything, because the meaning of all text including the Qur'an and this text is not in the text as that the meaning of a text is actually in the text.
 
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