What does "one" mean?

[Brian2]

I don't see it as a deviation of the Bible at all, but rather a deviation from the traditional interpretation of the Bible.

To be clear, we believe that "God" is a title that they share, and if you share a title with someone else, both of you can be addressed by or referred to by that title. Generally speaking, when we use the word "God," it is the Father we are referring to. When we refer to "the Lord," it is Jesus Christ we are speaking of.

There is, however, one place in our scriptures known as "The Doctrine and Covenants" where Jesus Christ is speaking of the anguish He endured in the Garden of Gethsemane just a couple of days prior to the crucifixion. He says, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men." And this may not be the only examples. It's just the one that first came to my mind.

But now I'm confused about your belief. As a Trinitarian (which I believe you are -- correct me if I'm wrong), don't you believe that Jesus is God? I've often heard Trinitarians say that God took on flesh and came to earth. Wouldn't that be Jesus you're referring to? When you say He was crucified, surely you don't mean that the whole Trinity was crucified.

I would say they share more than a title.
They share the same name, Yahweh, in the Bible for a start and share the same nature and form.
The Bible is Monotheistic and the LDS wants to add to the Bible and say that monotheism is not correct.
Jesus the man was crucified, but with Him was the Father and Holy Spirit in my understanding because God cannot be divided, separated into parts. However it was only Jesus who became a man and suffered and died on the cross and beforehand in the Garden of Gethsemane.
No doubt the Father and Holy Spirit were suffering also to see this happen even though they all knew it was going to happen. (just as we know that our loved ones will die but still suffer when it happens)
Paul said that Jesus is the fulness of absolute deity in bodily form (Col 2:9)
Jesus said that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.(John 14:11) and the Father and Son come to dwell in us when the Holy Spirit is given to us. (John 14:23)
There is no division but there is a distinction between them.

 

[Katzpur]

I would say they share more than a title.
They share the same name, Yahweh, in the Bible for a start and share the same nature and form.

Of course they do. They share virtually every attribute that makes them God.

The Bible is Monotheistic and the LDS wants to add to the Bible and say that monotheism is not correct.

That's utter nonsense.

Jesus the man was crucified, but with Him was the Father and Holy Spirit in my understanding because God cannot be divided, separated into parts. However it was only Jesus who became a man and suffered and died on the cross and beforehand in the Garden of Gethsemane.
No doubt the Father and Holy Spirit were suffering also to see this happen even though they all knew it was going to happen. (just as we know that our loved ones will die but still suffer when it happens)

Obviously, the Father and the Holy Spirit suffered greatly. But did either of them die? Did 1/3 of the Trinity cease be be alive for a period of time?

Paul said that Jesus is the fulness of absolute deity in bodily form (Col 2:9)
Jesus said that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.(John 14:11) and the Father and Son come to dwell in us when the Holy Spirit is given to us. (John 14:23)
There is no division but there is a distinction between them.

There is absolutely a distinction. And the only "division" is physical, because Jesus was the only one who had a mortal body which died. His Father remained in Heaven and did not die on the cross. Of course, you know that as well as I do, but because I use different words to express it, you claim my religion is not a monotheistic one.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Even in the muddled monotheism of the Trinity there is still just one God and He is not divided.

Oh come on. One God three persons. How is that not divided.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Bible is Monotheistic and the LDS wants to add to the Bible and say that monotheism is not correct.

You complain about the LDS adding the BoM, but isn't that exactly what Christians did when they added the New Testament.

 

[metis]

I think it is worth noting that if you take the three persons of the Trinity, and divide the essence as well, you end up with Polytheism, which defeats the whole purpose of Trinitarianism. You've jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Not really. Since I am their son, I'm much the essence of my parents, but I'm not my parents.

However, where I do agree with you is that Jesus is portrayed in the NT, and also within the Church as being without sin, which I personally think is highly unlikely. Is it subjective hyperbole on the authors part? Dunno, but I don't accept this as a belief that I have. But then there's a great deal I don't accept within the Tanakh either. Remember, I'm on the lunatic left-wing fringe of Catholicism, which actually is quite "kosher" because of personal discernment.

How cool is that, that you were able to spend time in Israel! I admit I am envious .

Twice: for 1 week in 1991 and 2 weeks in 1999. Loved it!

So, "Next Year in Jerusalem" for both of us!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not really. Since I am their son, I'm much the essence of my parents, but I'm not my parents.

However, where I do agree with you is that Jesus is portrayed in the NT, and also within the Church as being without sin, which I personally think is highly unlikely. Is it subjective hyperbole on the authors part? Dunno, but I don't accept this as a belief that I have. But then there's a great deal I don't accept within the Tanakh either. Remember, I'm on the lunatic left-wing fringe of Catholicism, which actually is quite "kosher" because of personal discernment.

I don't think you are the same essence as your parents. You are 100% separate. It sounds to me at first glance like you have slipped into having three gods.

But as a lunatic lefty, you keep things fresh and new in here, so keep on keepin' on LOL

Twice: for 1 week in 1991 and 2 weeks in 1999. Loved it!

So, "Next Year in Jerusalem" for both of us!

Amein!

 

[metis]

I don't think you are the same essence as your parents.

Oh, I very much am, but decades ago I would have very much denied it.

You are 100% separate.

That has nothing to do with "essence" as it doesn't imply "physical".

Here: Essence

It sounds to me at first glance like you have slipped into having three gods.

Nope.

But as a lunatic lefty, you keep things fresh and new in here, so keep on keepin' on LOL

Thanks, and you buy us the first drink in Jerusalem-- a pint of Maccabees, please.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh come on. One God three persons. How is that not divided.

What about all of the instances in the Bible that use "one" as an adjective denoting a unity which is not physical? I found one in the Old Testament and one in the New. If you want to disregard the ones in the New Testament, that's okay. But as the passage from Exodus indicates such a "oneness" among a large group of people.

Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."

Similarly, passages from the New Testament are similar:

2 Corinthians 13:11 "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."

Acts 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."

This is a figurative use. You could reword is as follows: The people spoke as if they had one voice.

I can't speak to your New Testament quotes. Greek is a different language than Hebrew, and I just don't know its nuances.

 

[Katzpur]

This is a figurative use. You could reword is as follows: The people spoke as if they had one voice.

I realize that, but why couldn't three beings, all equally divine, be considered "one God" -- assuming they all had the same will and purpose to their thoughts and actions?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I realize that, but why couldn't three beings, all equally divine, be considered "one God" -- assuming they all had the same will and purpose to their thoughts and actions?

Because being of one purpose is not the same thing as being one God.

 

[Katzpur]

Because being of one purpose is not the same thing as being one God.

Hmmm. I disagree. But then, I see "God" as a title applied to a deity comprised of three persons and being a collective noun. When I cheer for a team, I am not hoping for just one individual to excel but for the team as a whole to win.

 

[Brian2]

Of course they do. They share virtually every attribute that makes them God.

That's utter nonsense.

Obviously, the Father and the Holy Spirit suffered greatly. But did either of them die? Did 1/3 of the Trinity cease be be alive for a period of time?

There is absolutely a distinction. And the only "division" is physical, because Jesus was the only one who had a mortal body which died. His Father remained in Heaven and did not die on the cross. Of course, you know that as well as I do, but because I use different words to express it, you claim my religion is not a monotheistic one.

From the site below I got the following quote:
Is Mormonism polytheistic?

Some Mormons, recognizing their theology is polytheistic, prefer to soften it by referring to their religion as “henotheistic,” which means the belief in many gods but the worship of one chief god.

For Mormons, “Godhead” means a spiritual partnership that exists among the three “gods” of this planet: God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. (Mormons usually don’t say “Holy Spirit.”)

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, declared: “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personages and three distinct gods” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370).

In fact, Mormonism teaches that God the Father is essentially a “perfected man” and is limited by a body of flesh and bone and thus is limited to time and space. He happens to reside on a planet near an uncharted star called “Kolob” (Abraham 3:3-9).

Since Mormons worship both God the Father (Doctrine and Covenants 18:40) and Jesus Christ (3 Nephi 11:17; 2 Nephi 25:29), and since they believe the Father and Jesus are two separate gods, they truly are polytheists.

Beyond this universe I hear that there is a whole pantheon of Gods somewhere else in Mormon theology. The Bible teaches only one God, not 3 Gods, and certainly no other gods for other places outside this universe.
I can't understand why a Mormon would want to say they believe the Bible but then believe additions that deny the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

I see that the many God's are our own perceptions of all the Attributes shown in this world by One God, who has come in Many Names as shown by many Mesengers.

In this day we are able to have a global vision and to appreciate we are one human race. This is the 'Day of God', promised in all scriptures. There is no excuse for us not to embrace unity. That's how I see it anyway and that is the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

We are certainly united in more ways than we realised but the Messengers did teach different basic things unless you want to deny what they taught and say that it is Baha'u'llah who teaches the true basics and the others have been corrupted.

 

[Brian2]

Judaism is the first religion to have a permanent belief in One God. There was a temporary belief in One God earlier with the Egyptians, but that only lasted with one pharaoh.

Even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were probably polytheistic and then henotheistic. God taught monotheism to Moses and that was before the Egyptian monotheism. But of course the Israelites tended to fall out of monotheism.

 

[Katzpur]

From the site below I got the following quote:
Is Mormonism polytheistic?

Some Mormons, recognizing their theology is polytheistic, prefer to soften it by referring to their religion as “henotheistic,” which means the belief in many gods but the worship of one chief god.

For Mormons, “Godhead” means a spiritual partnership that exists among the three “gods” of this planet: God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. (Mormons usually don’t say “Holy Spirit.”)

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, declared: “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personages and three distinct gods” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370).

In fact, Mormonism teaches that God the Father is essentially a “perfected man” and is limited by a body of flesh and bone and thus is limited to time and space. He happens to reside on a planet near an uncharted star called “Kolob” (Abraham 3:3-9).

Since Mormons worship both God the Father (Doctrine and Covenants 18:40) and Jesus Christ (3 Nephi 11:17; 2 Nephi 25:29), and since they believe the Father and Jesus are two separate gods, they truly are polytheists.

Beyond this universe I hear that there is a whole pantheon of Gods somewhere else in Mormon theology. The Bible teaches only one God, not 3 Gods, and certainly no other gods for other places outside this universe.

Give me a break. Why on earth would you go to a Catholic website for information on Mormonism? Must be because you like how they spin our doctrine. I'm actually surprised that a Catholic website would stoop so low. That's the kind of thing I'd expect from CARM or Jack Chick. Look, I don't know whether you're a Catholic or not, but you sound more like a fundamentalist Christian, the kind of Christian who thinks everybody's damned to hell except them. If we were talking about the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, a fundamentalist website would explain it like this: "Catholics are cannibals. They have this weird, non-Biblical ritual where they eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood every Sunday. 'Hey, Pete! Pass me a thigh!'" Now does that strike you as just a little bit disingenuous? It should.

By the way, the fact that you didn't bother to answer the questions I asked you did not escape me. But that's okay. If you want to believe that God sent Himself to earth to atone for our sins, fine. It you find it logical to believe that Jesus prayed to Himself, okay. If you think He told His Apostles that He was going to be with Himself in Heaven and that He was greater than Himself, who am I to argue.

I can't understand why a Mormon would want to say they believe the Bible but then believe additions that deny the Bible.

Well, maybe that's because you don't actually understand Mormon doctrine anywhere near as well as you'd like us to believe. None of our beliefs "deny the Bible." That's just plain stupid.

Finally, for your information, here's what the Book of Mormon has to say about the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You might now consider it as authoritative a source on Mormonism as your Catholic website, but I can assure you that it is.

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.

Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

P.S. Mormons believe that God lives in Heaven, despite what your Catholic website may say. Any 5-year-old Mormon kid knows that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We are certainly united in more ways than we realised but the Messengers did teach different basic things unless you want to deny what they taught and say that it is Baha'u'llah who teaches the true basics and the others have been corrupted.

I say the opposite. I say they all taught the same spiritual truths.

The laws of the age are indeed different, our understanding of the core spiritual truths are also different and it requires consultation to eventually show us we are talking of the same Truths, but from a different frame of reference.

We have much to learn from each other.

Regards Tony

 

[metis]

Even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were probably polytheistic

Not according to Torah, but Abraham's father seemingly is.

But of course the Israelites tended to fall out of monotheism.

Yep. That and some other tendencies kept on reoccurring.

 

[Brian2]

Oh come on. One God three persons. How is that not divided.

It is not divided because the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son and they are both in the Spirit and the Spirit is in them.
I don't want to pretend that understanding God is meant to be easy, I just believe what the New Testament says and don't see a problem comparing it to the Hebrew Scriptures.
Do you think that not believing Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is what gives Jews a problem seeing the fit?
No matter what God shows Himself to be, God is One.

 

[Brian2]

You complain about the LDS adding the BoM, but isn't that exactly what Christians did when they added the New Testament.

Yes and no. Joseph Smith was not prophesied in the Bible. He along with many others came to confuse the issue.
The Hebrew scriptures show us that the one whom God would appoint to be firstborn, higher than the Kings of the earth, was going to be killed by the Jews and His crown thrown to the ground. (Psalm 89:24-52) Jesus has not yet fulfilled all the prophecies about the Messiah, but He is the suffering servant of Isa 53 and the one who was sent to bring Jacob back and to be a light and salvation to the gentiles. (Isa 49:6-9)