What does Jesus say about who will go to heaven?

[Just_me_Mike]

What does Jesus say about who will dwell with him in heaven, and who will suffer eternal punishment?

Can you first tell me what is allowed in regard to what we can represent as Jesus's teachings. Is it only from the gospels? Thanks...

 

[Autodidact]

No problem, but can you shed any light on that question?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No problem, but can you shed any light on that question?

What I am asking is, are you only asking what the four gospels say about your OP?

 

[Autodidact]

What I am asking is, are you only asking what the four gospels say about your OP?

Any Jesus quotes welcome. I'm looking for Jesus talking about heaven and who goes there.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

OK let's start with Matt 4

"17": From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of

heaven is at hand.
"18": And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
"19": And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Here, Jesus is doing what I claim the bible teaches to do, that is that salvation has become manifest. He then goes on to tell the future disciples that they would be fisher of men. At this point we have to define what fisher of men entails.
Next let's look at Matt 5

"2": And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
"3": Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"4": Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
"5": Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
"6": Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Here again, Jesus does not mention the poor of the Earth (and please don't confuse that with me saying he didn't care about the poor of the Earth, but we are discussing who goes to heaven). Jesus talks about the poor in spirit. He also, as I said earlier talks not about the hungry looking for actual food, but those hungry for righteousness. Here again we must define righteousness.

This should be a good place to start.

 

[Autodidact]

OK let's start with Matt 4 Here, Jesus is doing what I claim the bible teaches to do, that is that salvation has become manifest. He then goes on to tell the future disciples that they would be fisher of men. At this point we have to define what fisher of men entails.
Next let's look at Matt 5
Here again, Jesus does not mention the poor of the Earth (and please don't confuse that with me saying he didn't care about the poor of the Earth, but we are discussing who goes to heaven). Jesus talks about the poor in spirit. He also, as I said earlier talks not about the hungry looking for actual food, but those hungry for righteousness. Here again we must define righteousness.

This should be a good place to start.

I'm not saying whether Jesus told you to proselytize, but what He said about who goes to heaven and who does not. The only thing here that could be relevant to that is perhaps that the poor in spirit inherit the kingdom of heaven. What could He have meant by that? That seems odd.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This whole question is a red herring because it's not a question of "going to Heaven" but being accepted by God and living forever in His Kingdom. What did Jesus say about it?
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(John 3:3-18 KJV)

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I'm not saying whether Jesus told you to proselytize, but what He said about who goes to heaven and who does not. The only thing here that could be relevant to that is perhaps that the poor in spirit inherit the kingdom of heaven. What could He have meant by that? That seems odd.

This is why I am trying to take it slow Auto, it can be complex. However, if you are open to learn a new point of view I can share that with you. It won't hurt, I promise

You asked what poor in spirit could mean. Well by understanding that we can start to ascertain something about who he was looking for to go to heaven.

Would you agree at this point, that looking elsewhere in the bible about this subject "could" be useful to determine what is meant? In fact if we can find related material on said subject and keep "our" minds and ideas out of the discussion I would presume it to be more of what you are looking for.

What about verse six? He specifically calls for those that are thirsty and hungry for righteousness, not food or clothing or whatever.

So what do the poor in spirit and those that hunger for righteousness have in common? The poor in spirit have zero relationship with God, and as such could never enter into Heaven. Those that hunger and thirst for righteousness, are those that became aware that without this "righteousness" they could not enter into Heaven.

I will try to stay focused on just the aspects of entering Heaven, and who does.

 

[Autodidact]

This is why I am trying to take it slow Auto, it can be complex. However, if you are open to learn a new point of view I can share that with you. It won't hurt, I promise

You asked what poor in spirit could mean. Well by understanding that we can start to ascertain something about who he was looking for to go to heaven.

Would you agree at this point, that looking elsewhere in the bible about this subject "could" be useful to determine what is meant? In fact if we can find related material on said subject and keep "our" minds and ideas out of the discussion I would presume it to be more of what you are looking for.

What about verse six? He specifically calls for those that are thirsty and hungry for righteousness, not food or clothing or whatever.

So what do the poor in spirit and those that hunger for righteousness have in common? The poor in spirit have zero relationship with God, and as such could never enter into Heaven. Those that hunger and thirst for righteousness, are those that became aware that without this "righteousness" they could not enter into Heaven.

I will try to stay focused on just the aspects of entering Heaven, and who does.

Here's what I'm not interested in: what itwillend thinks about the subject. What I'm trying to find out is what Jesus said on the subject.

Interestingly, you keep asserting the opposite of what Jesus actually says. Thus your religion seems to be anti-Christianity. Jesus says of the poor in spirit "theirs is the kingdom of heaven." You say of the poor in spirit, "could never enter heaven." Thus your beliefs are the precise opposite of what Jesus asserted. Are you possibly a Satanist?

As for related material, I think you have to start with what Jesus said, directly on point. If that's complete and clear, you're done. If not, then related material may explain what He meant by certain terms. So let's start with WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT WHO GETS TO HEAVEN, O.K.? Then we can ask ourselves whether it's clear or confusing, and if the latter, how we can clear up that confusion. So, itwillend, what did Jesus say about who gets to heaven?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Here's what I'm not interested in: what itwillend thinks about the subject. What I'm trying to find out is what Jesus said on the subject.

Interestingly, you keep asserting the opposite of what Jesus actually says. Thus your religion seems to be anti-Christianity. Jesus says of the poor in spirit "theirs is the kingdom of heaven." You say of the poor in spirit, "could never enter heaven." Thus your beliefs are the precise opposite of what Jesus asserted. Are you possibly a Satanist?

As for related material, I think you have to start with what Jesus said, directly on point. If that's complete and clear, you're done. If not, then related material may explain what He meant by certain terms. So let's start with WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT WHO GETS TO HEAVEN, O.K.? Then we can ask ourselves whether it's clear or confusing, and if the latter, how we can clear up that confusion. So, itwillend, what did Jesus say about who gets to heaven?

WOW WOW WOW, we will definitely have to take this slowly. My fault.
Let's stay on the poor in spirit for a second. And please stop judging me. Is that the only reason to make this thread, to judge the responders?

I did not mean to imply the poor in spirit will not go to heaven. What I mean is that the poor in spirit are those that God chooses, to fill with the richness of eternal life, God's love, Jesus's blood etc... So now they are rich spiritually speaking...
Unless that happens in their life, they remain poor in spirit and will not enter heaven.

Then there are those that are self-righteous in spirit, these are those that "think" they have everything, but in fact have nothing, but trust in worldly goods, good works, and false notions of God.

As in Matt 7

"21": Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
"22": Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
"23": And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It should be a little clearer that those that enter heaven are not chosen solely on many wonderful things (feed the poor, clothe the naked etc...)

So let's stay on this set of verse before we move on...

 

[Autodidact]

WOW WOW WOW, we will definitely have to take this slowly. My fault.
Let's stay on the poor in spirit for a second. And please stop judging me. Is that the only reason to make this thread, to judge the responders?

I'm just responding to your posts, itwillend. This is a debate forum.

I did not mean to imply the poor in spirit will not go to heaven.

Well, here's what you said:

The poor in spirit have zero relationship with God, and as such could never enter into Heaven.

I don't know what you meant, but you said, "The poor in spirit...could never enter heaven."

What I mean is that the poor in spirit are those that God chooses, to fill with the richness of eternal life, God's love, Jesus's blood etc... So now they are rich spiritually speaking...
Unless that happens in their life, they remain poor in spirit and will not enter heaven.

Now that's you talking again. I'm trying to focus on what Jesus said, not what itwillend says.

Then there are those that are self-righteous in spirit, these are those that "think" they have everything, but in fact have nothing, but trust in worldly goods, good works, and false notions of God.

As in Matt 7
It should be a little clearer that those that enter heaven are not chosen solely on many wonderful things (feed the poor, clothe the naked etc...)

What makes this clear? Jesus says it is solely on that basis. Who are you to say different?

So let's stay on this set of verse before we move on...

How odd. I would think you would start with a verse where Jesus tells us who gets to heaven. O.K., in this verse Jesus says that the poor in spirit get "the kingdom of heaven." Then your interpretation of that is that because they're poor in spirit, God will choose to make them rich in spirit. Of course it doesn't say that, you have to make it up.

But isn't there a verse that states clearly what you have to do to get to heaven? If not, I've got to say that's a pretty confusing, useless book you've got there.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

How odd. I would think you would start with a verse where Jesus tells us who gets to heaven. O.K., in this verse Jesus says that the poor in spirit get "the kingdom of heaven." Then your interpretation of that is that because they're poor in spirit, God will choose to make them rich in spirit. Of course it doesn't say that, you have to make it up.

But isn't there a verse that states clearly what you have to do to get to heaven? If not, I've got to say that's a pretty confusing, useless book you've got there.

Oh dear goodness. Auto if it was as easy as you are suggesting, everyone would be saved and knowledgeable in the bible. Act as smart as I know you are.

Above, underlined, your mistake is thinking I made that interpretation up. I didn't, which is why I said earlier that all ideas should be derived from the bible itself not us. However, in the interest of not complicating an already complicated endeavor I omitted the supporting verses for my explanation of the poor in spirit, hoping you would realize I will provide the supporting verses to come.

It does not say God will choose to make them rich in spirit in that verse, (but I will provide verses shortly) let me ask you how do you imagine the poor in spirit will become not poor? Logically what would you think has to happen? And once it happens, do we agree the end result is the ability to enter Heaven, which is the point of the OP?

 

[Autodidact]

Oh dear goodness. Auto if it was as easy as you are suggesting, everyone would be saved and knowledgeable in the bible. Act as smart as I know you are.

Above, underlined, your mistake is thinking I made that interpretation up. I didn't, which is why I said earlier that all ideas should be derived from the bible itself not us. However, in the interest of not complicating an already complicated endeavor I omitted the supporting verses for my explanation of the poor in spirit, hoping you would realize I will provide the supporting verses to come.

It does not say God will choose to make them rich in spirit in that verse, (but I will provide verses shortly) let me ask you how do you imagine the poor in spirit will become not poor? Logically what would you think has to happen? And once it happens, do we agree the end result is the ability to enter Heaven, which is the point of the OP?

It's a very curious verse. I do NOT expect the Bible to be logical; far from it. In fact, it's completely illogical, so you can't really use logic to figure it out. My first step would be to look at other translations and see what they have to say. Or look at other usages of "poor in spirit" to see what Jesus means by that phrase. I'm thinking it means something like "sad" or "miserable," and Jesus is saying something along the lines of that people who suffer in this life will receive blessings in the next. That seems to fit in with the rest of the verse, which talks about the meek, those who mourn and so forth. So I think Jesus is saying it's not the people who are successful and lucky, but the poor and miserable who get blessed in the next life.

 

[Autodidact]

This whole question is a red herring because it's not a question of "going to Heaven" but being accepted by God and living forever in His Kingdom. What did Jesus say about it?
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(John 3:3-18 KJV)

Sorry, Sandy, ever since you admitted to me that you post for the sole purpose of annoying, I've lost interest in talking with you, as you know.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It's a very curious verse. I do NOT expect the Bible to be logical; far from it. In fact, it's completely illogical, so you can't really use logic to figure it out. My first step would be to look at other translations and see what they have to say. Or look at other usages of "poor in spirit" to see what Jesus means by that phrase. I'm thinking it means something like "sad" or "miserable," and Jesus is saying something along the lines of that people who suffer in this life will receive blessings in the next. That seems to fit in with the rest of the verse, which talks about the meek, those who mourn and so forth. So I think Jesus is saying it's not the people who are successful and lucky, but the poor and miserable who get blessed in the next life.

This really highlights a fundamental issue I have learned over and over again since being on the RF. That debate does not always have to equate to inconsideration. In fact it would be more beneficial to call it a conversation between the right people, sometimes, and debate at other times.

We have one instance of one verse, that we could together search the bible for a meaning that made the most sense collectively. How long would that take? Now times that by many more verses which talk about the same topic, it would be ABSOLUTELY useless, to try and bang posts back and forth for the sake of posting. I certainly am not interested in that. Nor am I interested in preaching to you. I am however, interested in honestly looking at topics with an open mind, and going from there.

So then, I offered my take without biblical verses to back me up in regard, to "poor in spirit" and you offered your initial take on it, and we can at a minimum agree it is "possibly" not as straight forward as some might suggest. So I don't see the point in moving to other verses, if I know it will end up in the same place. Which isn't a bad place to be, but it is a place that requires research, time, and genuine investment to try and understand something, just for the sake of curiosity. Aren't you curious?

 

[Autodidact]

I agree it's not in the least straightforward. Nothing in the Bible is. It means whatever you think it means, and anyone can say what they think it means and why. Various Christians will assert that individual passages, as well as the Bible as a whole, mean the exact opposite. Thus Christianity per se, and the Bible in particular, are revealed to be useless as a guide to anything. It's more of a mirror than a window.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I agree it's not in the least straightforward. Nothing in the Bible is. It means whatever you think it means, and anyone can say what they think it means and why. Various Christians will assert that individual passages, as well as the Bible as a whole, mean the exact opposite. Thus Christianity per se, and the Bible in particular, are revealed to be useless as a guide to anything. It's more of a mirror than a window.

OK, but... What if they are all wrong, all the people you claim are teaching the bible and contradicting each other. What if you are right.

Going back to this one verse about the poor in spirit, what if you by yourself, or people that have not made their mind up researched the only possible meaning of that verse, by comparing it to any and all verses in the bible that shed light on the verse. Then concluding and declaring to those interested, what you feel is the only conclusion that can be made from comparing verses alone, without interjecting opinion on the matter. It is hard, but not impossible.

By behaving in the manner you are, you are letting the people who have studied incorrectly make the decision for you. You judge their obvious erroneous teachings to be the actual content in the book, when in fact you know it isn't

I am not asking you to go find interpretations of the verse, but what I am suggesting is why not see what the bible has to say about the verse in its entirety? That is more or less what this thread is about. I simply offered from the first Gospel a place to start, and we can't even get passed the first reference to "those that go to heaven".

Anyway, if I am wasting your time, I apologize. If you want to keep going, let me know.

 

[Autodidact]

OK, but... What if they are all wrong, all the people you claim are teaching the bible and contradicting each other. What if you are right.

Then the Christian God does not exist.

Going back to this one verse about the poor in spirit, what if you by yourself, or people that have not made their mind up researched the only possible meaning of that verse, by comparing it to any and all verses in the bible that shed light on the verse. Then concluding and declaring to those interested, what you feel is the only conclusion that can be made from comparing verses alone, without interjecting opinion on the matter. It is hard, but not impossible.

I think we've established that there are a minimum of two possible meanings, so that's what we call a counter-factual conditional.

What you're saying is that you're right, and the millions of Christians who believe the opposite of you are wrong. Not exactly humble, is it? And aren't you supposed to be humble?

By behaving in the manner you are, you are letting the people who have studied incorrectly make the decision for you. You judge their obvious erroneous teachings to be the actual content in the book, when in fact you know it isn't

My main point is that there is no standard, no method, for determining whose interpretations are erroneous. The only thing we can say, objectively, is that diametrically opposite interpretations are possible.

For example, take "prosperity theology," very popular. Teaches that Jesus wants you to be rich. O.K., it's the exact opposite of what huge chunks of the gospel actually say, but they've got an explanation, a plausible theory. There is no objective method for figuring out who's right.

I am not asking you to go find interpretations of the verse, but what I am suggesting is why not see what the bible has to say about the verse in its entirety?

Sure, I agree with that. Is the phrase "poor in spirit" used anywhere else in the Bible? Or, what do the experts say about translating this phrase? I haven't looked.

That is more or less what this thread is about. I simply offered from the first Gospel a place to start, and we can't even get passed the first reference to "those that go to heaven".

Exactly.

Anyway, if I am wasting your time, I apologize. If you want to keep going, let me know.

No, I'm fine. Is the phrase "poor in spirit" used anywhere else in the new testament?

What else does Jesus have to say about who comes into the "kingdom of heaven?"

 

[idea]

What does Jesus say about who will dwell with him in heaven, and who will suffer eternal punishment?

heaven:

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
(New Testament | Matthew 18:3 - 5)

I'll put one in about obeying the law (you are a lawer right?)
34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.
35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:34 - 35)

 

[idea]

"What did Jesus say?" What did Jesus teach? I love starting with that - it's nice to see what words Jesus actually spoke (reather than concentrating on all of the other stuff written in various scriptures speculating/interpreting it.)

This is what Jesus said:

First parable given by Jesus - The Sower. Basically, Jesus is telling everyone "before I try to teach you anything, you need to learn how to be teachable". What kind of ground are we? Are we rocks? are we the wayside? or are we good soil?

The Sower – The first parable (Matt 13, Luke 8, Mark 4)
Jesus teaching from a ship to the multitude on the shore.
Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow his seed: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sum was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty and some sixty and some a hundred.

(and then Jesus was silent, rowed the boat back out into the lake, that is all the multitude heard… only the disciples heard the interpretation of the parable)

The seed is the word of God; The sower soweth the word.

Wayside:
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, and understandeth it not, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts lest they should believe and be saved.

Stony ground
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately reveive it with gladness; and have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction, tribulation, temptation or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, by and by they are offended and fall away.

Among the Thorns
And These are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, pleasures of this life and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Good Ground
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the words keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Before going on to anything else Jesus said, the parable of the sower must first be understood in it's entirety. Want to get serious about this? Want to know what Jesus taught? The only way to really learn what it is all about is to first becomeing "good ground".