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What does Jesus say about who will go to heaven?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Autodidact, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    What does Jesus say about who will dwell with him in heaven, and who will suffer eternal punishment?
     
  2. ayani

    ayani member

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    Jesus affirms that whoever believes in Him shall live, even though He dies. He also infers that those who did not know God's standards and did wrong will be held less acountable than those who were aware of them, yet did not do them.

    Jesus also says that if one does believe in Him, then one must bear fruits as His disiciples (works), or else one is fruitness, useless, and will be thrown into the fire.

    this means that the Lord expects fruits- love, kindness, forgiveness, prayer, discipleship - if one claims to believe in and belong to Him. sitting back and saying "i believe" and not moving at all is not bearing fruit.
     
  3. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    verses?
     
  4. ayani

    ayani member

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    Jesus also makes it clear that He will judge the nations one day, and seperate the sheep from the goats. those who have worked righteousness will go on to eternal life, and the wicked to punishment. my husband reports though that this is a judgement for believers from among the nations, however, and not for all people, as those who stand before Jesus recognize Him, and are called His sheep (those who belonged to Him).

    there are also verses, so interpreted by many early Christians, which can imply that the punishment in the world to come is not forever (Matthew 5:23-26).
     
  5. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    The verse you are referring to in the first paragraph?
     
  6. ayani

    ayani member

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    ok, one moment.

    John 11:25-26 (beleive and you will live, even though you die)

    Matthew 5:23-26 (you will not get out till you pay the last penny)

    Matthew 25:31-46 (sheep and goats)

    Matthew 3:10 (fruitless trees thrown into the fire)

    John 15:5-6 (fruitless vines thrown into the fire)
     
  7. ayani

    ayani member

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    Luke 12:47-48 (accountability based on what one knew, and did)
     
  8. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    O.K., thanks. So in John 11 Jesus says: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
    Saying that if you believe in him, you will live forever, but no comment about not believing in him.

    Then in Matthew 5,:
    "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
    Are you sure that's the verse you meant to cite? That doesn't seem relevant to me.

    Then in Matthew 25 he's really talking about judgment day,* and he says that God will accept those who showed generosity to the poor, and punish those who failed to do so. This passage seems pretty clear.
    (odd though He refers to God in the third person; just noticed that. Not relevant to our discussion.)

    Matthew 3 is little more poetic but seems to be about doing good rather than being of high birth, right?

    John 15 doesn't seem directly about getting into heaven, from what I can see.

    So what I'm getting is basically two things: (1) believe in me, Jesus (2) be kind to the poor, hungry and imprisoned.

    Does that sound right to you?
     
  9. ayani

    ayani member

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    Audo ~

    yes, i would say that is right. discipleship and good works as an outcome or the fruits of one's faith and life in Jesus.

    this is key, as we believe that Jesus is alive, able to save, and that when one believes on Him and decides to trust and follow Him, that He changes one's heart, self, and life. discipleship is not just about doing kind or good things, but about prayer, avoiding sin, listening to God, doing His will, living for Him, telling others about Jesus, and living in Him and for Him. kind and compassionate works are key, though. if we really love our neighbors, we will put that love into action.

    Matthew 5 is often read as being symbolic of life, and the afterlife. the "judge" is Jesus, the "prison" is hell, and one will not get out of that prison until the last penny is pain, implying that one will not get out of hell until one has served one's time there in regards to the evil one did.
     
  10. ayani

    ayani member

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    basically, anything Jesus says to His disciples in the Gospels should be taken my contemporary Christians as applying to them, too.
     
  11. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    Well I'm not asking about your views, but about Jesus' views--what did Jesus say, directly and clearly, on this subject. And basically I'm getting 2 things:

    (1) believe in Jesus (2) be kind to the poor and oppressed. Does that sound right to you?
     
  12. ayani

    ayani member

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    5,781
    not quite.

    1) believe in Jesus

    2) do everything He has commanded one to do as a disciple, including loving and serving the poor and needy

    Jesus also says that we (believers) are to live in Him and for Him, and that He makes us spiritually alive (John 15).
     
  13. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    Where do you get your (2) from? I'm talking about what Jesus says on the subject. From the verses you've cited, in terms of "how to get to heaven," it looks like John 11 and Matthew 25 are the only verses that speak to that subject. And John 11 says believe in Jesus, and Matthew 25 says to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take care of the sick, and visit those in prison. Where are you getting "follow all my commandments" from?
     
  14. ayani

    ayani member

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    because if one believes in Jesus (not just intellectually but personally and practically as a disciple) than everything Jesus said to His disicples in the Gospels also applies to them. Jesus gives His followers certain commands and examples to follow as pretain to marriage, purity, sin, prayer, love, money, trusting and loving God, service, discipline, forgiveness, etc. Biblically the Father tells us to "listen to [My Son]", and Jesus tells us to put His words into practice (Matthew 17:5, John 14:23-24, Matthew 12:49-50).

    bearing fruit and living as a disciple are not just about being kind to the poor, that is one (or two) of many aspects.
     
  15. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    ayani, please listen. I am not asking your opinion about how to get to heaven. No two Christians can agree on that. I am asking you what Jesus said on the subject. You cited several verses. A few of them did not seem to address that question. From what I can tell, two did, John 11 and Matthew 25. Those seem to me the only two verses that tell Christians how to get into heaven. These seem to say to believe in Jesus, and be kind to the poor and helpless. There is no other verse that says you have to follow all of Jesus' commandments to get into heaven, is there? (and in fact, this would be impossible.)
     
  16. TheKnight

    TheKnight Guardian of Life

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    That's why he posted the verses concerning the fruits and the vines. Jesus, throughout the gospels, makes it clear that he desires some sort of works. And that those works are necessary for salvation in concordance with believing.
     
  17. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    Well, John 15 says:

    If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.


    So it's not talking directly about getting to heaven, but about Jesus' love. (which is weird, because I thought Jesus' love was not conditional, but you learn something new every day.) Anyway, it says to follow Jesus' command and He will love you, and His command is: Love one another. [not clear on who "one another" is, unfortunately.] So, although it's not about heaven, if you do read it that way for some reason, it seems mainly to say to love one another; that seems the main point of that section, do you agree?
     
  18. TheKnight

    TheKnight Guardian of Life

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    I would agree. The parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 23 makes it clear, so I believe, that Jesus wants actions.
     
  19. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    Specifically, the feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, visit those in prison. Or, to be less literal, to show kindness to needy people. That's what I get He wants in terms of actions.
     
  20. TheKnight

    TheKnight Guardian of Life

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    Yes indeed. That seems to be what he wants.
     
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