What does God want from you?

[Link]

Why fry the kids when you can fix them?

You can't fix them.

 

[Bird123]

I think if Iblis didn't disobey, we would have a different universe. And if Angels didn't get arrogant in the start, even the creation of physical human being would not be necessary.

I really believe God can't do everything people think he can. He could've created a universe with a guarantee of guidance, but it would be not that meaningful. So it's a trade-off, he took a risk. Perhaps even regrets it even though it was not a mistake, but regrets it from perspective of the outcome. That is if he knew this would be the outcome, he might have created the more less meaning type world. He might have for example made Adam (a) of luminous light body that awed Angels including Iblis.

Is there something you are missing? God knows the outcome. I know the outcome because I know what God is doing. You Greatly Underestimate God.

If one follows mankind and mankind's view of God, one will Discover so many of mankind's Beliefs do not add up. In order to make mankind's beliefs add up, you have downgraded God's capabilities in order to make it all fit. Perhaps, if one expanded God's capabilities and had some advanced thinking, one might start to see the mess as mankind describes this world is really a Masterpiece!!

Question! Question! Question! To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery. If one chooses to just believe and accept, where is the way to Discover anything and move forward? How many limits to thinking has religion created? How many limit themselves through beliefs? Why would you think God would want to limit His children?

What are you missing? So much knowledge lives beyond the mere surface.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Really? Then please spell out for me ─

a) the manner in which God exists other than as a concept, notion, thing imagined, and

b) how you know this, other than by your brain's concepts, notions and things imagined.

God is actually Someone.
You are actually someone.
I know both exist because I have had interaction with both.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

God knows the outcome. I know the outcome because I know what God is doing. You Greatly Underestimate God.

You know what God is doing? You Greatly Overestimate yourself.

 

[Bird123]

What you have is a mere Belief.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

When all the facts are not known, one patches the gap with Beliefs. If Beliefs did not exist, one would lock up just like my old computer.

Religion teaches people to value Beliefs above all else. Why should one value Beliefs above facts when Beliefs are no more than a Patch over the unknown?? Isn't it better to know?? If you were God, wouldn't you want your children to know rather than living on mere beliefs??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

When all the facts are not known, one patches the gap with Beliefs. If Beliefs did not exist, one would lock up just like my old computer.

Religion teaches people to value Beliefs above all else. Why should one value Beliefs above facts when Beliefs are no more than a Patch over the unknown?? Isn't it better to know?? If you were God, wouldn't you want your children to know rather than living on mere beliefs??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

All you have are Beliefs. The only difference between you and a religious person is that they have religious beliefs and you have made up beliefs.
You don't know anything about God because you reject the only source of information about God, Messengers of God.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Is there something you are missing? God knows the outcome. I know the outcome because I know what God is doing. You Greatly Underestimate God.

If one follows mankind and mankind's view of God, one will Discover so many of mankind's Beliefs do not add up. In order to make mankind's beliefs add up, you have downgraded God's capabilities in order to make it all fit. Perhaps, if one expanded God's capabilities and had some advanced thinking, one might start to see the mess as mankind describes this world is really a Masterpiece!!

Question! Question! Question! To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery. If one chooses to just believe and accept, where is the way to Discover anything and move forward? How many limits to thinking has religion created? How many limit themselves through beliefs? Why would you think God would want to limit His children?

What are you missing? So much knowledge lives beyond the mere surface.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

There are logical constraints just by the paradigm. Logic is foundation of all possible worlds. You can't break the rules of logic.

The trade-off is there. He could created a world with no possibility of anyone going astray, but that is not the world we are in clearly. Why?

To you nothing went wrong, it is how it is. To me if this is true, then my parents were tortured because God knew they would be before he brought them to the world. And not only that, their torturers will go to heaven all the same with anyone else. And according to you there are no ranks, no lower or higher. So it's all in vain.

The world of suffering just doesn't make sense to me, unless, it's a world of trial.

Imam Musa Al-Khadhim (a) would get his torturers to repent to God often, so it's not that I say hate alone. But I say when a soul doesn't repent, doesn't fix itself, then it becomes unredeemable and unredeemable souls I think should be punished.

But even if God would not punish them with physical pain, eventually, their souls will face similar or even greater torment spiritually as they ascend and return to God and have been evil. And this return will happen. Day of judgment just speeds up the process, but give enough time it will happen.

So really, God is displaying physical pain and threats, but is trying to save souls from inevitable reality they are going to if they become evil.

In a ziyarat of Imam Ali (a) we say "Peace be upon you O who is the chastisement of the people of hell" but Ali (a) won't be personally punishing anyone, it means his light will burn the dark souls that all other pains physically become insignificant compared to that.

That - intoxication of hate - God can't remove. It's just you can't remove it unless the soul comes willingly to God and his light. The soul must be at peace.

While there is time, we ought to try. Because once we die, coming back, we will break promise again. God knows the logical contraints, and so warns us about hell.

It's not about limiting God. God can do logical possible things. But those by nature are limited by constraints. It's just the nature of logic that there will be constraints and trade-offs. God works with reality from that framework.

Logic is necessary in all possible worlds. You can't get rid of those rules.

 

[Bird123]

How does that follow? And what do you imagine anyone needs a god for even if one or more exist? You've not only been convinced that a god exists, but that you need to need to change your behavior because of it, yet nobody need do anything about that possibility. I don't. This is what I was referring to about religion being self-serving and indoctrinating adherents to have that sense of dependency on this notion. The church is a business that exists to provide a living for professional religionists. It sells the antidote to the disease it invented and for which only it has the cure - sin. Isn't that how you make your living? Clergy has always been a desirable gig relative to manual labor.

Yes, I am the highest authority in my life. If that's how you conceive of autonomy, then feel free to think of me as the god of my life. But isn't that more of the thinking that is intended to prevent people from doing what I've done - leave the church? Your job is to teach that that it is a mistake even though you can offer nothing in support of that idea.

They key to disentangling oneself from all of that is to simply look around and notice that this god doesn't manifest and that the religions that arose around it are self-licking ice cream cones, that is, they exist to sustain themselves while offer nothing of value in exchange for the tithes people give it, which are used to pay clergy and promote the business by building churches and missions, distributing Bibles to hotel rooms, televangelism, and even Superbowl ads for Jesus.

This likely why the Sabbath exists. Once the nomadic Hebrews settled and formed large towns and cities, the priests, who once wandered with the others and ate what they ate, collected in temples and the people came to them with money. This required able-bodied people to episodically (weekly) leave the flocks and fields, travel, and hear a sermon explaining why this was helping them and not just the clergy. This represents a new work ethic for people that once worked every day and considered it sloth to rest when there was work to do. So what do you do? You invent the week and weekend, and make it commandment to rest on that day, which doesn't mean sleep it late, but to get to the synagogue with those tithes and for a weekly booster of indoctrination.

One who buys into the religion's dogma will likely find that view cynical because he trained to, but as our friend @Bird123 is fond of saying, that's very clear to me that this is the reason for creation being described as six days of work followed by one of rest, and a commandment to emulate that pattern. The invention of this day of rest wasn't for no reason.

"It's about us" is anathema to the church. Your opinion is just as antithetical to its desire to psychologically trap adherents into believing that it alone has the answer to saving your soul - an idea they invented along with gods and sin - which they'll tell you needs saving because some kids once ate an apple and now YOU have a debt to this god because of it. And there's no way out, because this soul is immortal and its fate at the discretion of an angry, judgmental god. You're its hostage if that is so.

But here you are giving others permission to live a life like mine, which life does nothing for the church or its religions but does come on the Internet like you to write things like you and I write. Your theism isn't enough. The church wants your commitment to it as well. It wants your money, your vote (America only perhaps), and for you to spread the message that you need it as do others.

Because nobody else has anything more to offer than an indistinct concept of God. There are no apparent manifestations of any god, just the claims of people who say they know God. And this ex-Christian once made the same claim himself, so I understand the psychology there.

Then you didn't understand my answer. I not only discovered what I sought, but I've found it. I learned what that was decades ago, and then lived my life accordingly. What I wanted was love, beauty, leisure, and comfort, which includes freedom from want, fear, anxiety, shame, remorse, and the like, which I achieved living a principled, upright life (obeyed the law, met my responsibilities, lived ethically, found honest work that made a difference in the lives of others), worked and saved, tasted the world, and retired to a lakeside village in the mountains of Mexico fourteen years ago with a loving wife to live out our days sharing memories (and margaritas on the beach) while making new ones.

This is how they imagined paradise in the Garden of Eden to be, and what was lost when man was unceremoniously tossed out of his beautiful home to live a life of toiling, suffering, and then dying. I still have to die, and occasionally I suffer (friends die, a little arthritis) but I got the rest back.

Correct. I've been down that road and there was nothing there for me.

It's interesting to me to see so many people recommending pursuing gods to people who have learned to live without them. What's the incentive to do that again? But thanks for your interest. I know you mean well.

Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!

Free choice is part of God's system. I am not telling you what choices to make. I am merely placing Truth in the world. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? The truth was around all along. What each decides to do with truth is entirely up to them. I can point, however your choices are your own.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Every person who believes in the biblical God or any god, in my opinion, has a mere belief. I assume you believe you are correct in your spiritual beliefs, but others who disagree with you believe they are correct in theirs. However, your beliefs and those of others contradict each other. Christians and other Abrahamic theists, for example, believe there is only one God, whereas Hindus, Wiccans, and other pagans believe there are many gods to choose from.

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. Our actions and choices show God and the world what one knows and what one needs to learn. One's choices determine the lessons one learns.

God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. The mosaic of differences widens the view. The parameters in our lives along with the interactions among those in our lives lead us all forward.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. I work on mine everyday. How much is within our reach that one chooses to be blind to? All the secrets of God and the universe stare us in the face. God is hiding nothing.

If I had to give someone generic advice I would say. Listen to the advice of others but walk your own path. Life's lessons are best learned that way. Be who you must!! It's a part of the plan!! In time, each will choose for themselves what the best choices really are. Choosing is far too important to let others do it for one.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

God is actually Someone.
You are actually someone.
I know both exist because I have had interaction with both.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Describe this real God, so that if I encounter a real suspect I can determine whether it's God or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

When all the facts are not known, one patches the gap with Beliefs.

What you do is invent Beliefs to 'try' to fill in the gaps, what can never be known about God.
Then, by virtue of your Beliefs, you think you know something about God that the rest of us do not know.

Religion teaches people to value Beliefs above all else.

Religion does not teach people to value Beliefs. Religion teaches people to live by the teachings that were revealed by the Messengers of God.

Why should one value Beliefs above facts when Beliefs are no more than a Patch over the unknown?? Isn't it better to know?? If you were God, wouldn't you want your children to know rather than living on mere beliefs??

Through His Messengers, God has revealed what He wants humanity to know, what we need to know and are able to understand.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!

Thanks. It's part of my plan, too, although I'd word it 'be your best self.'

And I like your theology. It's not significantly different from my own atheistic, humanistic worldview except that you use the word God. There's nothing Abrahamic about it. Your deity doesn't appear to give orders, make threats, demean mankind, disesteem nature, or demand attention. A god belief shouldn't make a person feel small, inadequate, or guilty for holding it.

How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? The truth was around all along.

I use the word truth exclusively to mean the quality that demonstrably correct ideas possess. The truth then was that birds can fly. Just how wasn't known yet.

Perhaps, if one expanded God's capabilities and had some advanced thinking, one might start to see the mess as mankind describes this world is really a Masterpiece!!

Or remove the concept of god altogether and recognize that existence feels unlikely and be grateful to exist in such a beautiful world as earth, where love and contentment are possible.

God is actually Someone.
You are actually someone.
I know both exist because I have had interaction with both.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

That's not what I see, and with all due respect, even though you might, I don't believe that you see a god clearly.

 

[Trailblazer]

There's nothing Abrahamic about it. Your deity doesn't appear to give orders, make threats, demean mankind, disesteem nature, or demand attention.

The deity Baha'is believe in does not do any of that.

The Baha'i deity does not demand attention, since He needs nothing from humans.

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148​

​

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166​

A god belief shouldn't make a person feel small, inadequate, or guilty for holding it.

I fully agree. However, I realize that if I feel small, inadequate, or guilty that is coming from me, not from my beliefs. It is how I am relating to my beliefs that make me feel this way, my own feelings about myself. Other Baha'is I know don't feel this way since they don't have guilt and high expectations of themselves. That is my psychological makeup.

 

[Bird123]

You can't fix them.

God can. Can you see how God is doing just that all within the realm of free will?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

God can. Can you see how God is doing just that all within the realm of free will?

I see it as opportunity to prove ourselves to God and set up our footing so it travels to God. However, I see most humans failing in this respect and there is not much that we are doing about it. I sometimes wonder what I can do. But if I can do something, it will be something on the lines of unbinding the knots from sorcery upon the Quran. Breaking those locks for people. Maybe if I can do that for Muslims and make them see family of Mohammad (s) in the Quran, things will change.

 

[Bird123]

All you have are Beliefs. The only difference between you and a religious person is that they have religious beliefs and you have made up beliefs.
You don't know anything about God because you reject the only source of information about God, Messengers of God.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

It is your belief I am working on beliefs. To think otherwise would contradict your messenger belief. Your messenger belief allows you to let others to do the Discovering thereby all you have to do is accept or reject. What you might not realize is that those you follow are choosing their beliefs to patch their gap in knowledge. That is your choice. That is a lesson for you to learn.

I have found no religion that really understands God at all. To say God sent anyone a messenger to tell them what choices they should make proves that it could not come from God. Why not? It would go against the system God has in place. Why make a system then do things against that system? The math of that does not add up. Everything about God will add up.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

You know what God is doing? You Greatly Overestimate yourself.

Elaborate. How do I Greatly Overestimate myself?

 

[Trailblazer]

God can. Can you see how God is doing just that all within the realm of free will?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

God could but God doesn't. God leaves it to humans to fix themselves or not do so. That is why we have free will to choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is your belief I am working on beliefs.

It is not my belief, it is my observation. All you have are beliefs, what you believe you have Discovered.

To think otherwise would contradict your messenger belief. Your messenger belief allows you to let others to do the Discovering thereby all you have to do is accept or reject. What you might not realize is that those you follow are choosing their beliefs to patch their gap in knowledge.

Messengers of God did not have to Discover anything because they either have innate knowledge or knowledge from God.
Messengers of God do not have to patch any gap in their knowledge since they have all knowledge.

What you might not realize is that you are choosing to follow your own beliefs to patch their gap in your knowledge.

I have found no religion that really understands God at all. To say God sent anyone a messenger to tell them what choices they should make proves that it could not come from God. Why not? It would go against the system God has in place. Why make a system then do things against that system? The math of that does not add up. Everything about God will add up.

You have found no religion that you believe understands God. The reason you have found no religion that you believe understands God is because you believe you understand God, and what you believe about God is contradictory to what religion teaches.

God did not anyone a messenger to 'tell people' what choices they should make. God sends messengers to reveal what God wants people to know, and then it is their choice whether to accept , reject, or follow the teachings of the messenger.

You think you know what system God has put in place, but there is no way for you to know that without the messengers, who explain what system God has put in place.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Elaborate. How do I Greatly Overestimate myself?

You believe you know what God is doing. Nobody knows what God is doing.
All we can know is that God sent messengers. Not even the messengers know what God is doing.