What does God want from you?

[ppp]

So what?

So what?

Don't be churlish.

 

[Bird123]

I think if a soul does not fulfill the promise the first time with death pressuring, it will always fail after that. There is no way of redemption after really. This is the constraint, there is no way.

I've explained why before. How can it fulfill it, you say learn, but what if God bestowed his knowledge of himself and path before us coming to this world? If we fail the first time, how we going to pledge to God after? It won't be as sincere and would be tainted with failure from the life before. Or if we recall everything fully, it would be purely fear based with no room for love.

Fear of God right now is praiseworthy because God is hidden to a degree yet manifest. It takes love of God to fear him, since, it's easier just to do away with his reality and justice and try not to escape his judgment that way. It takes humility. But if God is fully manifest, where is the room to be humble and fear God out of love? There is none at this point.

You paint God as a Monster. Fear is much different than Love.

God is Unconditional Love. It has never ever been about accepting or believing in God. Physical life is the education of God's children. It has never been about God. It is about us.

Fail all you want or must. God is going to fix everything in time. You greatly underestimate God by saying God isn't going to work it out for all His children. Remember, God is at a Higher Level. That means not abandoning the children.

I think you believe in those petty things mankind holds so dear. I think you want to punish or hurt others you define as evil all in your vision of justice. Why do you want God to hurt others? Perhaps, you hang onto your hurt, dragging it around like a chain and hurting others in an attempt to get rid of your pain. You will not give up valuing these petty things until you understand all sides and how they can never bring the best results.

God hides nothing. Mankind uses fear to manipulate. Mankind wants people to be humble so they do not question and accept. If they do not want you to question, they do not want you to Discover the truth. To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

You paint God as a Monster. Fear is much different than Love.

Justice can feel like a monster, but it has a proper place, and the world is set up to give everyone what they earn. Everyone get's what they strive for and wish. Whoever wants God will find him. Whoever wants to run, will be given time to run away from him.

If God was not going to punish anyone, he would've made sure we all remain guided. He could've created such a universe, but it would not have much meaning and reward.

It's better to get use to the mean side of God now and be at peace. Meanness, vengeance, none of these are petty. They are from the source, just as all your emotions. God knows their proper place and will only use them in their proper place.

He is the most compassionate in proper place of pardon and mercy and most severe in retribution in the proper place of vengeance and anger.

Your vision of God is appeal to consequence. You want everyone going to heaven, that's nice, but it's unjust. Wanting everyone to be of equal footing with God won't take away the ranks they have. Equating good with evil, is not fair.

Love and hate are really two sides of "valuing" and spiritual vision of the soul. When the soul sees evil, it's suppose to hate it. Forbear it sure, but it's supposed to hate it. When it sees good, it's suppose to appreciate it and love it.

Valuing negative and positive means you hate the negative and love the positive. When you begin to value evil and good on par with each other, you aren't giving anything it's proper due.

 

[Bird123]

Well, if God could create us his equals, he probably would. If he can make us ascend to him in a meaningful rewarding way without trying our free-will I'm sure he would.

But there are constraints by what he is. God is a free being and ascension to him is only possible by will. He can't force it. He only veils from creation because actions are for other than him, and that is out of his compassion, lest they perish and burn due to his overwhelming light.

There is no repeating God and time makes our features limited and constraints due that apply.

I wrote this after but you reacted before that:

How can it fulfill it, you say learn, but what if God bestowed his knowledge of himself and path before us coming to this world? If we fail the first time, how we going to pledge to God after? It won't be as sincere and would be tainted with failure from the life before. Or if we recall everything fully, it would be purely fear based with no room for love.

Fear of God right now is praiseworthy because God is hidden to a degree yet manifest. It takes love of God to fear him, since, it's easier just to do away with his reality and justice and try to escape his judgment that way. It takes humility. But if God is fully manifest, where is the room to be humble and fear God out of love? There is none at this point.

You do not understand. God isn't through creating us yet. This is the education stage.

Free will is necessary for true learning. If one had no free will, one would do the opposite as soon as one was free to choose just to Discover what was missed.

Do you really think God is helpless under the realm of free will? That pretty saleslady sold me a kitchen food processor I didn't want or need under the realm of free will. Are you telling me God is helpless and that saleslady isn't?

You make all these rules of what God can and can't do. Don't you see? This limits you from Discovering what the real truth really is. Further, you make special rules about how one can reach God. This limits you to following mankind who set these rules. God has no rules. There are none. It's all free choice and learning and growing until one reaches that Higher Level.

You speak of God bestowing all knowledge to us before we are born. Look around you at a true action of God. God doesn't just give knowledge out. Wisdom is acquired along the journey to acquire this knowledge. Why would God not want His children to acquire Wisdom????

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

A better question has never been asked of @Bird123.
But don't expect an answer. Just expect more of the same.

It is what is and not a mere Belief.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Do you really think God is helpless under the realm of free will?

I think if Iblis didn't disobey, we would have a different universe. And if Angels didn't get arrogant in the start, even the creation of physical human being would not be necessary.

I really believe God can't do everything people think he can. He could've created a universe with a guarantee of guidance, but it would be not that meaningful. So it's a trade-off, he took a risk. Perhaps even regrets it even though it was not a mistake, but regrets it from perspective of the outcome. That is if he knew this would be the outcome, he might have created the more less meaning type world. He might have for example made Adam (a) of luminous light body that awed Angels including Iblis.

 

[Bird123]

Love and being part of the family. Friendship.

You are mighty hard to argue with about Love and Family. On the other hand, I say it's much more than friendship. Of course, I understand your meaning behind it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I've already told you your affected condescension does you no credit at all.


You can't even tell me what real thing you intend to denote when you say God.

Thus providing further support for my earlier statement, that the only manner in which God is known to exist is as a concept, notion, thing imagined in an individual brain.

End of story.

Correct the statement. It should be that the only manner in which God is known BY YOU to exist is as a concept, notion, thing imagined in an individual brain.

How could you speak for anyone except for yourself? Much more lives beyond your belief system than you realize.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

Correct the statement. It should be that the only manner in which God is known BY YOU to exist is as a concept, notion, thing imagined in an individual brain.

Really? Then please spell out for me ─

a) the manner in which God exists other than as a concept, notion, thing imagined, and

b) how you know this, other than by your brain's concepts, notions and things imagined.

 

[Bird123]

Here's an example of YOU discussing scripture in which you don't believe. As you now see, sometimes, there's a reason to do that.

You recently called these two religions true religions, but now you advice disregarding one's holy book.

What about it deserves to be called truth?

Me neither. I have no need for a god belief or a religion. I've found what I sought without gods and in part because of that. You seem to assume that a transition to theism is a good move for anybody. I disagree.

That's not religion to me. Religion is the set of beliefs and practices of a person with a supernatural worldview.

That's the goal of every healthy person. Some see that as achieving paradise in heaven. For me, it's my present life of the last fourteen years. I feel centered, have purpose, and enjoy my days.

Maybe you've been listening to people that feel qualified to give strangers unsolicited life advice and assumed some of their habits. You seem like a happy guy. Imagine me doing that with you:

"Please, Mr. Toucan. Why won't you follow me?"
"But I'm where I want to be."
"Why aren't you searching for more?"
"Because I'm content with what I have."
"So you think you have it made, huh?"
"Well, yeah. I have what I want. Wasn't that the purpose of learning and planning?"
"Why do you do this? You fight and fight with any excuse you can think of not to take the journey."
"No, I'm just not interested in what you're offering. Why do you think I should be without knowing me?"

You do not understand me. When I asked you to Discover what you really seek, it was not limited to God or religion. You might question about God, however God is not what you seek.

That is the point I was making. Each decides for themselves what they seek. It is clear you do not seek God.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

It is what is and not a mere Belief.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

What you have is a mere Belief.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Kenny]

You are mighty hard to argue with about Love and Family. On the other hand, I say it's much more than friendship. Of course, I understand your meaning behind it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Yes, one's understanding of the definition of friendship is important! Covenant friendship may help qualify.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If life does come from God, then you do need Him

How does that follow? And what do you imagine anyone needs a god for even if one or more exist? You've not only been convinced that a god exists, but that you need to need to change your behavior because of it, yet nobody need do anything about that possibility. I don't. This is what I was referring to about religion being self-serving and indoctrinating adherents to have that sense of dependency on this notion. The church is a business that exists to provide a living for professional religionists. It sells the antidote to the disease it invented and for which only it has the cure - sin. Isn't that how you make your living? Clergy has always been a desirable gig relative to manual labor.

what you are saying is that you are your own god.

Yes, I am the highest authority in my life. If that's how you conceive of autonomy, then feel free to think of me as the god of my life. But isn't that more of the thinking that is intended to prevent people from doing what I've done - leave the church? Your job is to teach that that it is a mistake even though you can offer nothing in support of that idea.

They key to disentangling oneself from all of that is to simply look around and notice that this god doesn't manifest and that the religions that arose around it are self-licking ice cream cones, that is, they exist to sustain themselves while offer nothing of value in exchange for the tithes people give it, which are used to pay clergy and promote the business by building churches and missions, distributing Bibles to hotel rooms, televangelism, and even Superbowl ads for Jesus.

This likely why the Sabbath exists. Once the nomadic Hebrews settled and formed large towns and cities, the priests, who once wandered with the others and ate what they ate, collected in temples and the people came to them with money. This required able-bodied people to episodically (weekly) leave the flocks and fields, travel, and hear a sermon explaining why this was helping them and not just the clergy. This represents a new work ethic for people that once worked every day and considered it sloth to rest when there was work to do. So what do you do? You invent the week and weekend, and make it commandment to rest on that day, which doesn't mean sleep it late, but to get to the synagogue with those tithes and for a weekly booster of indoctrination.

One who buys into the religion's dogma will likely find that view cynical because he trained to, but as our friend @Bird123 is fond of saying, that's very clear to me that this is the reason for creation being described as six days of work followed by one of rest, and a commandment to emulate that pattern. The invention of this day of rest wasn't for no reason.

God is Unconditional Love. It has never ever been about accepting or believing in God. Physical life is the education of God's children. It has never been about God. It is about us.

"It's about us" is anathema to the church. Your opinion is just as antithetical to its desire to psychologically trap adherents into believing that it alone has the answer to saving your soul - an idea they invented along with gods and sin - which they'll tell you needs saving because some kids once ate an apple and now YOU have a debt to this god because of it. And there's no way out, because this soul is immortal and its fate at the discretion of an angry, judgmental god. You're its hostage if that is so.

But here you are giving others permission to live a life like mine, which life does nothing for the church or its religions but does come on the Internet like you to write things like you and I write. Your theism isn't enough. The church wants your commitment to it as well. It wants your money, your vote (America only perhaps), and for you to spread the message that you need it as do others.

Correct the statement. It should be that the only manner in which God is known BY YOU to exist is as a concept, notion, thing imagined in an individual brain. How could you speak for anyone except for yourself?

Because nobody else has anything more to offer than an indistinct concept of God. There are no apparent manifestations of any god, just the claims of people who say they know God. And this ex-Christian once made the same claim himself, so I understand the psychology there.

You do not understand me. When I asked you to Discover what you really seek, it was not limited to God or religion.

Then you didn't understand my answer. I not only discovered what I sought, but I've found it. I learned what that was decades ago, and then lived my life accordingly. What I wanted was love, beauty, leisure, and comfort, which includes freedom from want, fear, anxiety, shame, remorse, and the like, which I achieved living a principled, upright life (obeyed the law, met my responsibilities, lived ethically, found honest work that made a difference in the lives of others), worked and saved, tasted the world, and retired to a lakeside village in the mountains of Mexico fourteen years ago with a loving wife to live out our days sharing memories (and margaritas on the beach) while making new ones.

This is how they imagined paradise in the Garden of Eden to be, and what was lost when man was unceremoniously tossed out of his beautiful home to live a life of toiling, suffering, and then dying. I still have to die, and occasionally I suffer (friends die, a little arthritis) but I got the rest back.

Each decides for themselves what they seek. It is clear you do not seek God.

Correct. I've been down that road and there was nothing there for me.

It's interesting to me to see so many people recommending pursuing gods to people who have learned to live without them. What's the incentive to do that again? But thanks for your interest. I know you mean well.

 

[Kenny]

How does that follow? And what do you imagine anyone needs a god for even if one or more exist? You've not only been convinced that a god exists, but that you need to need to change your behavior because of it, yet nobody need do anything about that possibility. I don't. This is what I was referring to about religion being self-serving and indoctrinating adherents to have that sense of dependency on this notion. The church is a business that exists to provide a living for professional religionists. It sells the antidote to the disease it invented and for which only it has the cure - sin. Isn't that how you make your living? Clergy has always been a desirable gig relative to manual labor.

Obviously, it is in regards to my signature. If, and only if, it is God that gives life then without God one doesn't have life.

As far as changing behavior, imv, it is about love. Doesn't love change one's behavior? Not because one has to but rather one wants to.

I don't understand how that is "indoctrination" or "self-serving" - those words are opposite to love.

The church can be a business as much as your family can be a business. It is what you make of it. Noting in and of itself is necessarily good or bad... it is what you do with it that makes it good and bad.

Yes, I am the highest authority in my life. If that's how you conceive of autonomy, then feel free to think of me as the god of my life.

OK... I support your right to hold onto that worldview.

But isn't that more of the thinking that is intended to prevent people from doing what I've done - leave the church? Your job is to teach that that it is a mistake even though you can offer nothing in support of that idea.

Church isn't a building. A relationship with God is about a personal relationship and not a building.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If, and only if, it is God that gives life then without God one doesn't have life.

That's pretty much tautological. Also, if there is no god, one had life without gods. That's also tautological. But in neither case is there a need to know which it is or to begin worshiping unseen creator gods that even if they exist don't necessarily know or care that we do.

The church can be a business as much as your family can be a business.

The church *IS* a business, but a family is not although it can start a business. A family might go into the religion business, however. This is fiction, but not too different from Jim and Tammy Bakker: ‘Gemstones’ creator Danny McBride smacks down religious hypocrisy

Church isn't a building. A relationship with God is about a personal relationship and not a building.

I tried that, but there was one person missing from the relationship, and it wasn't me. And you left out something: the religion that informs the people in that building. THAT' the relationship - with a religion, not with a building or an unseen god. And the relationship is vendor (clergy) and consumer (adherent). I imagine you'd be pretty unhappy if your congregation suddenly realized that they don't need your building or what goes on in it because they had a direct connection to the deity. The religion is about the priests mediating that alleged relationship for the price of a tithe, and that's where the business aspect comes in.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It is what is and not a mere Belief.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Every person who believes in the biblical God or any god, in my opinion, has a mere belief. I assume you believe you are correct in your spiritual beliefs, but others who disagree with you believe they are correct in theirs. However, your beliefs and those of others contradict each other. Christians and other Abrahamic theists, for example, believe there is only one God, whereas Hindus, Wiccans, and other pagans believe there are many gods to choose from.

 

[Kenny]

That's pretty much tautological. Also, if there is no god, one had life without gods. That's also tautological. But in neither case is there a need to know which it is or to begin worshiping unseen creator gods that even if they exist don't necessarily know or care that we do.

True on all accounts... and good questions

The church *IS* a business, but a family is not although it can start a business. A family might go into the religion business, however. This is fiction, but not too different from Jim and Tammy Bakker: ‘Gemstones’ creator Danny McBride smacks down religious hypocrisy

It is as much a business as your family is a business. As I said... you make it what you want it.

I tried that, but there was one person missing from the relationship, and it wasn't me.

Disagree.

And you left out something: the religion that informs the people in that building. THAT' the relationship - with a religion, not with a building or an unseen god. And the relationship is vendor (clergy) and consumer (adherent). I imagine you'd be pretty unhappy if your congregation suddenly realized that they don't need your building or what goes on in it because they had a direct connection to the deity. The religion is about the priests mediating that alleged relationship for the price of a tithe, and that's where the business aspect comes in.

Yes... as I said... it is as you believe it is.

No one is forced to tithe and no one is forced to love. It is as if you are saying, "The price of my marriage is that I have to give her my money"... really?

 

[Gassim]

Nothing. If a god exists, it has never communicated with me. There's no reason to believe that a god would know I exist or care, either.

Or, we can just dispense with the whole notion of gods until we have reason to do otherwise. I don't need a god in my life or to run it. I do that myself, which claim often vexes the faithful. Your reply is a common answer to that- you just want to play god. Another is that the atheist is a dissolute hedonist trying escape accountability, as if the pursuit of happiness without a god or religion is somehow to be avoided.

What? This can't mean what it appears to say, can it - that the idea that evidence implies knowledge is unobtainable? Correct deductions derived from the proper interpretation of evidence generate knowledge. Is that controversial?

Try plain speaking. Perhaps you could write that again and flesh it out using more words whose meaning are clear.

There are no known divine sources.

He's merely disagreeing with you. In academic circles, argument is not fighting just as criticism is not insulting. Neither is emotionally motivated.

You called this being argumentative:

You said: That's just what you say.
I said: and what you say is just what you say.
You said: As you keep insisting, that is just your opinion

How is he being argumentative but not you? You're each expressing opinions and not even contradictory ones. Here you are again being "argumentative" again as you use the term. All I see is a dispassionate disagreement, not a conflict.

"There is no God of Group A and God of Group B. There is only one God. People believe different things about that God, which is usually according to their religions."

We can make ourselves our own god too.
This is polytheism and it means a man is creature and gods are creatures but the man is a superior over gods. Meanwhile the true God is the Superior and ultimate reality, perfect in power and wisdom

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

We can make ourselves our own god too.

If your definition of a god is any autonomous agent, then yes, we can all be that, and many of us have.

Or, we can turn over the authority for our lives to somebody else, who then becomes one's god by this definition. And he might even believe that other person channels or speaks for gods, in which case he imagines himself to be subordinate to a literal god as I once did before reclaiming my godhood.

This is polytheism and it means a man is creature and gods are creatures but the man is a superior over gods.

My version doesn't include any literal gods, just your kind of god - any autonomous moral agent.

Meanwhile the true God is the Superior and ultimate reality, perfect in power and wisdom

Only in the minds of people who believe that dogma. I'm not one, so the comment is empty for me. For me, the opposite is true: there are no known gods in reality, and so they can have no power or wisdom. But you and I can, because we're definitely real conscious, volitional, and able to learn from experience what works and what doesn't, wisdom being knowledge derived from other knowledge (correct inductions derived from experience that facilitate finding and maintaining happiness as one defines it).

I'll take the wisdom I've accumulated over any received advice, especially any coming out of Abrahamic holy books, which agenda for me is not my own and which understanding of the right things to pursue in life contradicts my own experience of what is right, good, and true and what behavior and mental practices produce happiness. I'd be glad to share much of that with you, but I assume that you're no more interested in that than I am in what holy books advise.

 

[Bird123]

Justice can feel like a monster, but it has a proper place, and the world is set up to give everyone what they earn. Everyone get's what they strive for and wish. Whoever wants God will find him. Whoever wants to run, will be given time to run away from him.

If God was not going to punish anyone, he would've made sure we all remain guided. He could've created such a universe, but it would not have much meaning and reward.

It's better to get use to the mean side of God now and be at peace. Meanness, vengeance, none of these are petty. They are from the source, just as all your emotions. God knows their proper place and will only use them in their proper place.

He is the most compassionate in proper place of pardon and mercy and most severe in retribution in the proper place of vengeance and anger.

Your vision of God is appeal to consequence. You want everyone going to heaven, that's nice, but it's unjust. Wanting everyone to be of equal footing with God won't take away the ranks they have. Equating good with evil, is not fair.

Love and hate are really two sides of "valuing" and spiritual vision of the soul. When the soul sees evil, it's suppose to hate it. Forbear it sure, but it's supposed to hate it. When it sees good, it's suppose to appreciate it and love it.

Valuing negative and positive means you hate the negative and love the positive. When you begin to value evil and good on par with each other, you aren't giving anything it's proper due.

God has no meanness, vengeance or hate. Why do you feel you must? These are things mankind values.

Sure there is positive and negative. How could one understand all sides if things were one sided? Why is one supposed to hate when one sees others making bad choices? Free choice!! One can choose within an unlimited possibilities of choices. Must you Hate? Why?

Why would you think that all God's children are not equal in God's eyes? Do you think that by condemning others that it makes you somehow better in God's eyes?

How do you define Justice? Are you not just wanting payback and revenge? Instead of payback and revenge, wouldn't the better choice be to fix the kids? So you have been hurt. Is Justice to you just hurting back those who hurt? If you choose to continue the cycle of hurt then hurt back, when will things get fixed? Is the answer really fry or destroy that which is not easily fixed??

Let's not forget God is very Smart. God will teach all His children what their choices really mean. There is no hurt or hate others without lessons returning to teach. When one understands all sides, hurt and hate are no longer viable choices one could make. Why fry the kids when you can fix them?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!