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Featured What Did Jesus Mean?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20:6 is after the thousand years have expired. In the which Christ Jesus kingdom is here on Earth. And those are not Resurrected back to a physical life here on Earth.
    They are in their spiritual bodies and not human bodies of flesh and blood bodies.

    In speaking of the resurrection of the dead. Have you any idea what the resurrection of the dead even means ?

    As for Revelation 17:14, 19:14, have you any idea when this all takes place ?
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    For example...? Just so I don't misunderstand you. :)

    Some would point to the transfiguration and the presence of Moses. But there is no return of any prophet literally except Christ and his return was going to produce certain results....like....

    Acts 17:31..."[God] has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.”

    Christ's return involves judgment.....
    Matthew 25:31-33..."When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."

    Jesus "sitting on his throne" as God's appointed King and judge of all mankind, is connected to this time of judgment. The "sheep" are rewarded with life due to the fact that they have aided and supported Christ's "brothers" in their assignment. The "goats" however, are dispatched as those who never came to the aid of his brothers.....so I guess it is important to identify Christ's "brothers" and help them in any way that is needed.

    JW's believe that there are two separate events that take place in this "time of the end". Jesus gave a 'sign of his presence' (parousia) but this is NOT his 'coming'. His "manifestation" would come later after all that he foretold for these last days was complete. That sign would indicate that the last days of this present system of things had begun. (Matthew 24:3-14)

    The various features of the sign have been fulfilled since the events of 1914 began the process....unprecedented war, food shortages, pestilences, earthquakes in one place after another, increase of lawlessness, the love of the greater number growing cold.....this we believe coincides with his enthronement as king of God's Kingdom seen in vision by Daniel centuries before it happened. (Daniel 7:13-14) All these events had to take place before his "coming" as judge to separate the sheep from the goats. This "time of the end" or "the last days" of the present system of things was an opportunity for all humans to make their decisions about God and whom they would serve. When he comes as judge...those decision will have been made using the free will that he gave us. There will be no opportunity to change your mind or switch horses, then. This is why we believe that "the good news of the kingdom" being "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" is so important....it forms the basis upon which every individual is judged. It forms part of the "sign". (Matthew 24:14)

    I don't believe that is what Jesus meant. In those verses he is telling us that he is a servant of his Father and teaches only what the Father told him to say. Nothing originates with him, thereby killing any notion that he is God (as most Christians believe).

    For John the Baptist, as one who died before Jesus established the "new covenant" with his 12 apostles, (they form the foundations of the Kingdom. Revelation 21:14) there will be no place in the heavenly kingdom because he was not anointed for kingship or priesthood like all the other pre-Christian servants of his Father. (Hebrews 11:13) They all knew something better was coming, but the details were not yet revealed to them. Only after Christ's death and resurrection, did the missing pieces all fall into place. The King Jesus Christ was to rule with a chosen priesthood in a heavenly kingdom with earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    This is how a lesser one in the kingdom is greater than John, whose services will no doubt be fully utilized in the new world to come. (2 Peter 3:13)
     
    #62 Deeje, Oct 11, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not sure how this is even relevant to the topic metis.

    You'd have to clarify how this relates as well.....he was recognized by the people as a prophet and his mission was to prepare the people to receive their Messiah...but this does not address the question of why a lesser one in the kingdom is greater than he is.

    Ummm...there was nothing to argue. :p
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yep....so how is a lesser one in the kingdom, greater than John?
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Actually, it was Jesus who said that, and in Matthew 3:11, John said.... "I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire." He was of course referring to Jesus.

    Any who did not progress on to accept the Messiah did not appreciate John's mission. John himself was beheaded so he did not promote any sectarianism. He pointed to Jesus not himself.

    That is nonsense. Jesus and John were never rivals, but misguided disciples of John could have thought so. That was their problem.
    Jesus was always going to "swipe" John's disciples...that was the whole point of his mission. Please read the accounts again and educate yourself. Ignorance distorts everything.
     
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    To answer the question, What did Jesus mean " Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he". Matthew 11:11.


    Those in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist in the flesh, For flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Therefore the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John in the flesh and blood.

    The one in the kingdom of heaven are already in the kingdom of heaven, while John was still here on Earth.

    Let's for say, that a loved one has pass away, now their in the kingdom of heaven, but your still here on Earth.
    So they are greater than you are here on Earth.
    Their already enjoying the kingdom of heaven, while your still here on Earth.

    Even the one that least in the kingdom of heaven, is greater than you are here on Earth.
    Therefore the one that least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John is here on Earth.
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    But, but, but, what if someone (like YOU or like me) translated it wrong and it actually doesn't mean what you say it means? Then, what?
     
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    It's quite obvious seeing Jesus speaking about those that are in the kingdom of heaven, would be greater than those here on Earth.

    There's no missing that one, When it's quite obvious the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven would be greater than those here on Earth.

    So the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven, would be greater than John is here on Earth.
    That's not hard to figure that out.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Satan was in Heaven. No?
     
  10. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Something like the Greek pattern of things?
     
  11. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Or, maybe, like the Egyptian pattern?
     
  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That all depends on what you mean by
    Satan (was) in heaven

    Satan is still in heaven. So where do you get Satan (was) in heaven.
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    According to you, then, Satan has not been thrown out yet. OK.
     
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I shall add my opinion. I say, why the hell not? I think that Revelation 12:9 hath been fulfilled. Already. A DONE DEAL.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think you are missing something very obvious.....no one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

    King David did not go to heaven. (Acts 2:34-35)

    Elijah did not go to heaven.
    Elijah was carried up out of Elisha’s sight by the windstorm but the Bible does not say that Elijah died on that occasion. As a matter of fact, Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet at least five years later, apparently over in the territory of Judah. The Bible tells us: “Eventually there came a writing to [Jehoram, king of Judah] from Elijah the prophet.” This letter foretold the sickness and death of Jehoram because of his idolatrous course. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15)

    A further evidence that Elijah did not die at the time of being taken into the “heavens” is that his servant and successor Elisha did not then hold the customary period of mourning for his master. (Compare 2 Samuel 19:1; 1 Chronicles 7:22; 2 Chronicles 35:24)

    So you see, according to Jewish belief the dead were in "sheol" which is the grave...a place of complete inactivity and unconsciousness. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) There was no belief in an immortal soul in Jewish teaching until the Pharisees adopted it from the Greeks. Christendom did too. But Jesus taught that the dead are all still in their graves since he says that he will call them from their tombs in the resurrection. (John 5:28-29) Paul too stated that this was Jewish belief. (Acts 24:15)

    Where do people get the idea that all Christians are going to heaven? There are only a chosen few granted that privilege and for a specific purpose.....to bring humanity back into an approved relationship with God through the ministry of the reconciliation.

    2 Corinthians 5:18-20...
    "But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”


    That is the whole mission of Christ and his kingdom....what was lost in Eden is restored in Revelation. (Revelation 21:2-4) God put humans on earth, not in heaven. Those chosen for rulership in heaven are the "ambassadors" who carry out "the ministry of the reconciliation". Ambassadors must be appointed by their ruling authority. It is not a position that they can give themselves. They also need qualifications.

    At the time Jesus said that there was no human who had gone to heaven. John was dead. Jesus had not yet been executed so the way through the "curtain" was not even open. (Hebrews 10:20)
    Only the ones taken into the new covenant will rule with Christ in heaven. Since they will be both rulers and priests, (Revelation 20:6) if everyone goes to heaven, who will be their subjects? For whom will they be priests?

    1 Corinthians 15:20-24....
    " But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power."

    Can you see the order presented here....Christ is the "firstfruits", then "at his coming" those who "belong to Christ". That doesn't include those who died before Jesus. These ones believed in a resurrection back to life on earth. I believe that too. I will not go to heaven but look forward to the benefits that the Kingdom will bring to all mankind.
     
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  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Well it's quite obvious, Jesus did say,
    "Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he" Matthew 11:11.

    Your disagreement is not with me, Your disagreement is with Jesus.
    Jesus did say, ( the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven)

    Therefore there are people in the kingdom of heaven. As Jesus said.
    So if you have a disagreement, better you take up with Jesus on Judgement day.
    We'll see how far you get on that one.
     
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Nope not at all according to me, But according to what Christ Jesus given in the book of Revelation.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    But I have no disagreement with Jesus...or with the Bible.
     
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  19. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    There are verses in the bible that relate to BOTH Jesus coming AND His return.

    An example is Isaiah 40:3-5
    The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
    And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.


    These verses were clearly relevant to the coming of Christ and specifically John the Baptist (the return of Elijah).

    As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

    And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

    Luke 3:4-6

    But we also find reference to similar versea in the book of revelation in regards Christ's second coming.

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Revelation 1:7

    In regards the clouds, Christ makes mention of these in the Olivet discourse.

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Matthew 24:30

    But these very signs are those the Jews would have expected as they are mentioned in Daniel 7:13
    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    The signs in regards the heavenly bodies that Jesus spoke with his return in Matthew 24:29 are also part of the text in Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 24:23 and Isaiah 34:4

    These are all signs that accompanied Christ's advent and also the Returned Christ.
     
  20. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    John the Baptist is the return of Elijah. Although not the same person, they played the same role and had the same spirit.

    As Elijah and intimately associated so too are Moses and Jesus. Both brought a New Covenant from God. It is the person Moses who provides the foundation for Judaism as Jesus does for Christianity. They both have an experience with the Holy Spirit as their mission begins, Jesus with the Dove from heaven after being baptised and Moses with the burning bush.

    Lets be clear that Jesus brought judgement day to His peoples with what happened to Jerusalem and the temple 70 AD but also resurrected the dead (Matthew 27:53).

    The Returned Christ brought judgement as Christ did.

    Both have happened.

    WWI was essentially Armaggeddon and a direct consequence of humanities failure to recognise Baha'u'llah and heed His warnings to the Kings and rulers of the earth. It was God's judgement.

    Bahá’u’lláh writes to the rulers of the world - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 31-33

    This is one area where the Baha'is and JWs agree.

    Lets agree that God's revelation to man is progressive and unfolding. :)

     
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