What can happen when you believe nonsense...

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Malarkey! You can't sail off the edge of earth. Antartica is in the way. Maybe, ... just maybe, if you can get past Antartica, you could end up on the other side of the Flat Earth, but you're not going to just "drop off" into space. Haven't you heard of gravity?

View attachment 33387 View attachment 33388

Watch out for the 4 elephants underneath there... or A'Tuin, the World Carrying Turtle.

But there *is* a fence around the outer edge-- placed there to help keep ships from sailing off the edge.

 

[Nakosis]

A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

I think the father is possessed by a demon. Recommendation: Pour scalding hot water down his throat and hold him underwater for 5-10 minutes.

 

[shmogie]

Religion is known for getting a free pass on behaviors that are otherwise unacceptable, if not illegal.

Illegal things cannot be done in the name of religion.

However, the Constitutional right to be free to practice ones religion may conflict with some other right of some other person., A judge must determine which right applies in a particular situation.

Religious freedom is always given high priority by the courts, because it was extremely important to the Founders, and ranks right at the top of the bill of rights.

Santaria practitioners were crosswise with the animal cruelty laws applicable for the jurisdiction. Their animal sacrifices are in fact, by my judgement, despicable.

Yet the courts held that animal sacrifice had always been part of their religion, and their right to freely practice their religion trumped the law in this case.

If the practice of religion is sacrosanct , it must be so for all beliefs,

Hopefully the line would have been drawn at human sacrifice !

 

[Windwalker]

A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

That's not simple irrational or magical thinking. That was a mental illness. It's insanity, not just bad reasoning.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's not simple irrational or magical thinking. That was a mental illness. It's insanity, not just bad reasoning.

In this case, I've no doubt you're probably correct. However, the principle remains, and there is no shortage of examples -- not the least of which is strongly religious parents withholding medical assistance for children, sometimes with very devastating results. Consider, as well, exorcisms, which surprisingly are still practices around the world -- even in the United States. (In fact, exorcisms declined steadily in the US from the 1800s until mid 20th century, but increased by about 50% in the 1960s and 1970s.

One might expect people in the first century AD to have small knowledge of psychology, and to explain madness as possession by demons, but there is no reason for doing so today, and thus the fact that there are any exorcisms at all shows a continued reliance on irrational and magical thinking.

 

[Deeje]

In the OP, the basic irrational belief (in demon possession) is actually an aspect of many religions.

The sad thing is that "exorcism" in the minds of religious extremists, has taken on Hollywood type responses, whereas nothing resembling what is currently viewed as "expelling demons" was practised in the Bible. Prayer was the weapon.....nothing violent or life threatening about that.

The thing that identifies authentic Christians is a lack of extremist practices. It is reasonable, whilst being obedient to God's actual requirements. Christ never taught us to be extreme in either direction. Balance is the key.

 

[PruePhillip]

A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

The problem is how to define rationality.
And whether the world we are creating today is more rational than that of our past.

 

[Windwalker]

In this case, I've no doubt you're probably correct. However, the principle remains, and there is no shortage of examples -- not the least of which is strongly religious parents withholding medical assistance for children, sometimes with very devastating results.

I don't think that's a fair comparison to make. While you may have primitive societies with outdated, or even superstitious beliefs, those cannot be compared with the mentally ill, who don't fit within even those outmoded societies.

Consider, as well, exorcisms, which surprisingly are still practices around the world -- even in the United States. (In fact, exorcisms declined steadily in the US from the 1800s until mid 20th century, but increased by about 50% in the 1960s and 1970s.

These are systems of belief reflective of the cultures they revolve around, their worldviews, their systems of reality. We in the modern West have a different system of reality based upon certain philosophical principles which gave rise to Modernity. We should make no mistake however, our system is just as primitive to other systems of understanding as the future unfolds for us through growth.

Exorcisms don't fit within the modernist framework. But they do fit within the magic and mythic frameworks. They have an internal logic to them as they symbolically represent reality to them.

One might expect people in the first century AD to have small knowledge of psychology, and to explain madness as possession by demons, but there is no reason for doing so today, and thus the fact that there are any exorcisms at all shows a continued reliance on irrational and magical thinking.

But this is the 60 million dollar question. Why is it that it persists? Shouldn't everyone be at the modernist level of reality which sees truth through a rationalistic framework of logic based upon the philosophical principle called the law of noncontradiction? Since we think like this, why shouldn't they?

That's a fair question, and one that trips people up at the same time. The reason is, because the researchers who have investigated that very question have mapped these out as stages of growth development. Every person, and every society grows through predictable stages which all have and use different frameworks and modes of cognition to perceive and think about the world. It's not just a matter of sharing knowledge, but actual developmental stages of growth which shifts how one's mind thinks and perceives.

There are various names that can be cited into their supporting research on this, if you're interested.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

When is it a good thing?

I can't quite speak for child murder thinly veiled as religious fervor, but humans believe and hold a number of irrational ideas every day. Artists and dreamers build their lives off the irrational. We use it for entertainment (frankly, what's rational about video games or movies?). Hell, even things like love and hate can be seen as irrational facets to the human experience. Post Age of Reason, people (typically atheists) seem overly caught up in Logic and Reason. Those are well and fine, and certainly have their place, but so too does the illogical and irrational.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

All across the human spectrum, irrational things can be believed.

True. How many of them get a free legal pass to act unacceptably, sometimes illegally, and often with attempts to interfere in the lives of others, both privately and legally?
Only religion gets that free pass. Even before this incident the OP referenced, religion getting this free pass has left a massive pile of dead children the law does nothing about. He may not be peirce on such a way, but even still, children still die because of these demented beliefs that need curtailed, severely and direly so.

 

[MonkeyFire]

No True Scotsman. And? Apparently not only DOES god take that crap?

It's so common (across the world) that god takes far worse "crap" than even that... and does absolutely nothing.

Imo the Christian bible is cryptic and it would take Jesus or st. Michael themselves to decipher it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

These are systems of belief reflective of the cultures they revolve around, their worldviews, their systems of reality. We in the modern West have a different system of reality based upon certain philosophical principles which gave rise to Modernity. We should make no mistake however, our system is just as primitive to other systems of understanding as the future unfolds for us through growth.

Exorcisms don't fit within the modernist framework. But they do fit within the magic and mythic frameworks. They have an internal logic to them as they symbolically represent reality to them.

As cases such as this-beliefs that result victims and other people paying for the consequences, these nonsense beliefs have lost that right. Exorcisms and demonic possession doesn't fit into any worldview that is grounded in reality, because demons and demonic possessions don't exist. But exorcisms are known for sometimes being physically and mentally traumatizing, turning people into victims and corpses. Which is why, yeah, they do need to think more rationally because beliefe in superstitious entities and events just got another child killed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Illegal things cannot be done in the name of religion.

Correct, because under any other circumstances withholding medical treatment from a child is a crime. Religious people do it, their child dies, and just because they believe in adult Santa clause they don't face the consequences of their crimes like anyone under any other circumstances would, so it's not illegal just as long as you do it name of some invisible fantasy being.

Yet the courts held that animal sacrifice had always been part of their religion, and their right to freely practice their religion

Which is, frankly and bluntly, bull****. Animal abuse and cruelty is another one where religion gets a bs free pass on unacceptable and illegal behaviors. They want to live here and enjoy their rights, they can be equal under the law instead being the only group that manages to have a real life get out of jail free card.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Imo the Christian bible is cryptic and it would take Jesus or st. Michael themselves to decipher it.

No, that's just a Christian myth they like to believe so they can feel special and down out debate points they find uncomfortable, because "they don't have the holy ghost so they just don't understand."
Pure Bullocks.

 

[MonkeyFire]

No, that's just a Christian myth they like to believe so they can feel special and down out debate points they find uncomfortable, because "they don't have the holy ghost so they just don't understand."
Pure Bullocks.

He who has ears let him listen... it's kinda like biblical prophecy being unveiled in front of you... knowing the power of the anti-Christ (hate) and how he gives it to the second devil (no love).

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Which is, frankly and bluntly, bull****. Animal abuse and cruelty is another one---

Gonna stop you (and shmogie) there. Animal sacrifice as performed by Santeria complies with butchery laws (same ethics laws that apply to slaughterhouses that provide for food), and must routinely meet with those standards. There is no abuse or "cruelty".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He who has ears let him listen... it's kinda like biblical prophecy being unveiled in front of you... knowing the power of the anti-Christ (hate) and how he gives it to the second devil (no love).

If that is the case, why am I, and many other former Christians, how do we not lose our understanding of the Bible and how it was interpreted in our denomination, and how are we still able to read it as the same words? True, I've spotted some lazy Google hack-n-chop search work because the interpretation presented isn't how it's understood to Christians, but there is nothing that prevents me from teaching the errors of that interpretation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Gonna stop you (and shmogie) there. Animal sacrifice as performed by Santeria complies with butchery laws (same ethics laws that apply to slaughterhouses that provide for food), and must routinely meet with those standards. There is no abuse or "cruelty".

They are killing a living entity just to selfishly appease their personal fantasy world view. It's hardly different from human sacrifice. The practice has got to go.

 

[MikeDwight]

I follow "no-political-princess for Scotland" theory. Its an imposed theory onto Presbyterianism from my game Medieval Total War 2. Every country in Europe gets a sweet princess to seal the deal politically, except Scotland. One must assume size differences of maybe 2:1 and political extortion nullification upon international marriage with Presbyterians. And! Flat Earth +1

 

[amorphous_constellation]

That's a sad story, but what is it you want to debate? Is that all the information there is on this story? What else can be said about the man