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What are the values of moderate Muslims?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by icehorse, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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  2. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Union,

    We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point. You think the Quran is peaceful, I think it is not.

    Most of the verses you just listed, even with your interpretation, still do not seem peaceful. I am not a Muslim. According to the verses you just showed us, does that make me an "oppressor, evil, and wrong-doer"? Do I desire to corrupt you? Do I desire your ruin?

    I can tell you Union, I have no ill will towards you. But your book tells you that I do. That is not a message of peace.
     
  3. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    This question sounds weird. It kinda preassumes that there is some sort of sect which is moderate islam and questions virtues inside of it as if it should have virtues like a person. I am really amazed at muslims trying to answer these type of questions.
     
  4. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    ametist -

    Can you say that another way, I'm not understanding your comment?
     
  5. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    I tried to say in another way but the meaning was same.
     
  6. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I am a bit surprised by icehorse's take as well.

    The Quran isn't all that unusual a scripture in that sense. It is of course central to all Muslim's religious practice and it can of course be misused, abused and misunderstood. But ultimately it falls upon the practicioners to take responsibility for their practice, even if it may involve accepting a certain take on the Quran's meaning and implications over someone else's.
     
  7. Bismillah

    Bismillah Submit

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    Hassan al Banna said "A Muslim should strive to attain a strong body, good character, cultured thought. He should be able to earn a living, have pure belief, and correct worship. He should be able to control his desires, be careful about his time, organized in his affairs, and beneficial to those around him. These comprise the duties of every Muslim as an individual."
    Sorry to say you have a very lackadaisical approach when it comes to reading, in fact if you cannot bother to read preceding and succeeding verses then I question whether such a man has ever attempted to read the entirety of the Qur'an itself.

    Being a disbeliever does not one who oppresses or causes mischief, the ones who do sow such turmoil are seen in example during the life of the Prophet when the Quraysh attempted to destroy the community of Muslims in Medina.

    You might be interested in the constitution of Medina, non-Muslims lived, have lived, and continue to live side by side with Muslims across the world.
     
  8. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    ametist and Luis - Do the passages Union posted seem peaceful to you? If so, what kinds of mental gymnastics did you have to go through to arrive at that conclusion. To me, the words are the words.

    So, coming back to the beginning... There are over a billion people in the world who *declare themselves* to be Muslims. (Oh sorry, I forgot about the whole apostasy thing.)

    I'm trying to get a basic sense of what that declaration means. I've tried various ways to attain this basic understanding. In this thread I thought I'd try starting with a values proposition.

    So Union, or anyone who goes about interpreting the words in the book, what moral guide do you use to do your interpretation? For example, if you think offensive Jihad is a bad idea, how did you come to that conclusion?
     
  9. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Bismillah,

    Thank you for your response. And thank you for the quote from Hassan al Banna.

    The problem I have with your answer is that the Quran says that the Quran is clear, understandable, and eternal. In other words, the Quran's messages do not depend on what happened ~1400 years ago in Medina or Mecca or anywhere else. It seems that you are saying that the passages that Union quoted need more context to be understood? Is that what you're saying?
     
  10. Bismillah

    Bismillah Submit

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    Seyyed Hossein Nasr likened the Qur'an to a tree that bears fruit. Within it is wisdom and guidance for all manner of humanity. A man who is not capable of looking at it in depth still is able to taste the fruit that comes from following and reading the book, but as one commits and finds them self within the Qur'an itself the rewards are then reflected in the effort.

    What you yield depends on how much you put in, but it is clear and understandable as it is multifaceted.

    When I say you need context it applies to a great many things. For example the context of what the scripture itself is saying. If you take ayat 191 from Surat al baqarah for example and bold certain portions, it is not yielding anything other than what is obvious from such a confined reading. But if you study the Qur'an holistically and let it speak for itself, instead of quote mining it, then the meaning can often be drastically different than the seemingly obvious one gleaned from such a narrow view point.

    In another sense the Qur'an is a living document and it is simultaneously a historical document in that revelations came as they were relevant to Prophet Muhammad's life. That is why Muslims, Sunni and Shi'ite, place the utmost emphasis on understanding the nature of revelation as it was during the Prophetic life to understand how it applies to our own life.

    Furthermore Muslims see the Prophet as the absolute guide towards Allah, from whom our understanding of our faith, which he preached, depends on.

    So when I say that you need to understand the "context" it applies to a variety of things and methodologies.
     
  11. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    That may well be. But I don't really care. As a rule, I do not demand people to be fundamentalists of any scripture. I expect people to know and act better than scriptures, so I will not call them up on doing just that.
     
  12. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I have to say that this is one of the best descriptions I have ever heard!

    (Before I go forward, I have to say that I think it's wrong of you to accuse me of "quote mining". I offered a few examples only because I was asked to.)

    With that said, it leaves open the questions that I'm most concerned with. For example, it doesn't speak to equal rights for women. It doesn't speak to spreading Sharia. It doesn't speak to free speech. It's issues like these that I was hoping might be traceable back to core values.
     
  13. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Luis - A year ago I would have totally agreed with you, but I have found it very difficult to have any deep conversation about Islam without hearing scripture :sad:
     
  14. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    That is true, but so what?
     
  15. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    In the context of this thread, my goal is to understand Muslims better than I do. When scripture comes into the conversation my experience is that understanding gets harder to achieve. That's why I like that one quote from Hassan al Banna, it's clear and it helps promote understanding.
     
  16. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    Hi Icehorse . To support your view you have to have solid evidence from Qur'an that it prescribes to fight peaceful people and spread chaos for nothing . In the same time you must know that Qur'an doesn't teach 'If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also' rather 'Fight for your right' is the staunch slogan of Qur'an .

    I expect you to read the Qur'an with an open mind and unbiased heart . Thanks .
     
  17. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Union, Well it's clear we disagree about the Quran. You seem to think it is peaceful, I disagree. But this is not the forum for debate, so back to the original question of values...

    Do you value free speech? Equal rights for all? Secular government? Freedom of religion?

    (If you do, then you SUPPORT criticism of religion, equal rights for women and gays, support for Jews, the denial of Sharia, and you support apostasy.)

    Of course it's possible to support some of those, but not all.
     
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  18. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    Your list may need more elaboration on support for Jews but apart from gay issues I support most of them with the denial of 'Shia-Sunni' Sharia and not GOD's Sharia .
     
  19. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

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    I hate how these discussions always involve talking about Muslims as if we all have the same level of practice, all belong to the same ideology.
     
  20. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

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    Why is it impossible to support all that?
     
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