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What are the values of moderate Muslims?

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
Great post.

Especially that last paragraph. I've had a co worker say some thinking derogatory about Muslims, not knowing I am one.

Funny really.
I really don't know how do Muslims in the West behave but speaking for myself living in the middle east, we are just normal people. An American Muslim is just another American. A Brazilian Muslim is just ... another Brazilian. I really don't like it when people think we came from a different planet and that we are weird.

We love and value:
- Honor
- Freedom
- Arts
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Logic
- Compassion

I think it's not fair to judge Islam by the circumstances of the Muslims of today. If you look back in the past you will see that Muslims were the enlightened of that day while Europe was still in it's dark age. Life goes on and everything changed, and we are back to square one, but Muslims want to get up again and contribute to the world as they were doing in the past. Currently we have many political challenges with dictators running the show and using religion for their own means, but everything is changing and Muslims are wiser now. extremism shocked us Muslims as it shocked the rest of the world. It's scary but again, they are a very small percentage compared to more than 1 billion Muslims around the world. They are less than 1% of Muslims.

I think the one who find it really challenging is not me, the one living in the middle east, but it's more difficult for those living for example in America. They see hate and suspicion in people's eyes no matter what they do so they either isolate themselves in small communities to make their life easier, or they hate others back, or fight back peacefully in patience the misconceptions around them and don't stop mixing with non-Muslims despite how they view them. Most of people just want to go to their work everyday, go back home and watch their favorite show, visit friends, etc.

What you see as alien is not something related to Islam, but something related to culture. Some Muslims mix Islam with culture, that's true, but many others don't. I'm sure that there are ALOT of Muslims whom you didn't caught by your radar simply because they talk the way you do, wear the way you do, work the way you do, think the way you do, so they go unnoticed, and you will only recognize as Muslims those who like to be vocal about it or those who wear in a special way. So you will all miss a great deal of what is a Muslim like because you are looking and noticing those who don't look like you. you are not looking to the Muslim working next to your desk, you are looking down out of your window to the one who *look* like a Muslim in your perception. Think about it.


Peace.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I hate how these discussions always involve talking about Muslims as if we all have the same level of practice, all belong to the same ideology.

Hi Assad91,

This is me, one Western, non-Muslim trying to understand Muslims. ;)

I'd be *very pleased* to hear your specific thoughts. I don't take the stance of lumping large groups of people together, but ya gotta start somewhere :)

As for the other response about how Muslims living in the West might be viewed, I agree that those prejudices exist. One way to break down those walls is to understand each other better. For most people (in the U.S. at least), Islam is very mysterious and unknown.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
Hi Assad91,

This is me, one Western, non-Muslim trying to understand Muslims. ;)

I'd be *very pleased* to hear your specific thoughts. I don't take the stance of lumping large groups of people together, but ya gotta start somewhere :)

As for the other response about how Muslims living in the West might be viewed, I agree that those prejudices exist. One way to break down those walls is to understand each other better. For most people (in the U.S. at least), Islam is very mysterious and unknown.

It's only mysterious to ignorant people. There are many ways to learn about Islam and Muslims. You can always go online to websites, go to a mosque and talk with the people, to to an interfaith meeting, etc.

I am a Western man, born and raised in America. Your questions are odd in that you seem to think we all are different and are not human.

Do you love your mother? I do too. Shocking, right?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
@Assad91 , please try to avoid rude attitude and try to create a soft corner as the OP repeatedly mentions that s/he wants to know more about Islam . Another thing , more Muslims already involved already in this thread , hence don't take the responsibility alone to teach Icehorse Islam nor s/he begged you to do so .
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
@Assad91 , please try to avoid rude attitude and try to create a soft corner as the OP repeatedly mentions that s/he wants to know more about Islam . Another thing , more Muslims already involved already in this thread , hence don't take the responsibility alone to teach Icehorse Islam nor s/he begged you to do so .

I'm no teacher and haven't even attempted to teach anything religious.

Really Union, not everyone tries to proslytize and advertise their sects teachings in every thread.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
I'm no teacher and haven't even attempted to teach anything religious.

Really Union, not everyone tries to proslytize and advertise their sects teachings in every thread.

Here we are talking about Qur'an - that is for everybody and every Muslim . No chance of Ayatollahs and Shaaikh's now ...

And you already tantamount US People = Ignorant People , which is really rude ...
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It's only mysterious to ignorant people. There are many ways to learn about Islam and Muslims. You can always go online to websites, go to a mosque and talk with the people, to to an interfaith meeting, etc.

I am a Western man, born and raised in America. Your questions are odd in that you seem to think we all are different and are not human.

Do you love your mother? I do too. Shocking, right?

Hi Assad91, Well, here I am, online on a website! Also, I live in a rural area, it's not practical for me to drive 100 miles to visit a mosque. And I have been reading books and reading the Quran. I have to say I think I'm putting in a lot more effort than most folks in the West.

As far as your "ignorance" comment goes... what's wrong with being ignorant? We can't all know everything about every topic? I'm here trying to learn. I'm sure that you don't know everything about everything - do you?
 

ametist

Active Member
If anybody wants to learn about a religion god helps them in accordance with their intentions. I dont think other humans have to do anything out of ordinary for that neither they should bend or kneel beyond their own measures just to make things clear despite the listeners will or capacity. Whatever is understood is understood.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If anybody wants to learn about a religion god helps them in accordance with their intentions. I dont think other humans have to do anything out of ordinary for that neither they should bend or kneel beyond their own measures just to make things clear despite the listeners will or capacity. Whatever is understood is understood.

I assume everyone is on this forum because they want to be :)

ametist, what I'm really asking about is a combination of religion, culture and values, and how those three might work together or not. These three ideas often overlap, but they don't totally overlap and that's where I'm curious.
 

cocolia42

Active Member
I have to say that this is one of the best descriptions I have ever heard!

(Before I go forward, I have to say that I think it's wrong of you to accuse me of "quote mining". I offered a few examples only because I was asked to.)

With that said, it leaves open the questions that I'm most concerned with. For example, it doesn't speak to equal rights for women. It doesn't speak to spreading Sharia. It doesn't speak to free speech. It's issues like these that I was hoping might be traceable back to core values.

Hi icehorse. I'm a western Muslim. Here's my 2 cents:

Islam does speak to equal rights for women, HOWEVER, men and women have different roles in society and in the family. Women have the right to be educated, to vote, to work, to choose their spouse (or choose to stay single), etc. But a woman's first priority (after Allah) is to nurture her home and family. It is not okay for the family to suffer so the woman can go to work because she wants to. A man's first priority (after Allah) is providing and protecting the family. If for some reason the husband can't work, certainly he can nurture the home while his wife works to provide for the family.

There is a common misconception regarding Sharia, I'm not sure if you hold this misconception yourself or not, but many think that when we talk of implementing sharia that everyone is under sharia law. Sharia law applies to Muslims.

Islam does speak to free speech, however that speech should be respectful. You can speak your mind without using profanity, without cursing anyone, without slandering anyone.

Islam does speak to freedom of religion. There is no compulsion in religion. You can't force someone to believe what you believe. As the Qur'an states clearly "Lakum deenukum waliya deen" (for you is your religion and to me is my religion.)

I really don't know what a "moderate" Muslim is, but a Muslim does for the sake of Allah, not to please people. Allah commands us to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil. Allah tells us that the losers are those who turn their backs on Allah. Allah tells us that success is for those who believe and do righteous deeds. We value what Allah values.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi cocolia42,

Thanks for your answer.

When you say "it's not ok for the family to suffer so the woman can work...". How "not ok" is it? Is this just a suggestion, or could the wife be punished for going to work?

When it comes to Sharia, would you feel free to leave Islam, or might you be punished if you did?

Same basic question concerning free speech. Of course I agree the world is a better place when people are respectful of each other. With that said, if someone criticizes or makes jokes about Islam or Muhammad, what is the result? I ask because there have been many worldwide Islamic organizations that have actively promoted blasphemy laws. Organizations such as the OIC and CAIR to name a few. And I'm sure you recall what happened around the world several years ago with the Danish cartoons?

As far as freedom of religion - what is the penalty for apostasy?

As far as what a "moderate Muslim" is, I don't know either, but it's a phrase you hear a lot on the news.

cocolia42 - I'm asking the hard questions because these are the important questions, I thank you for your time and energy.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I've been trying to understand Islam for a couple of years now. I've read one translation of the Quran and skimmed through a few others. I've been on several other Islamic sites. I live in "the West".

What we in the West hear over and over again is that most Muslims in the world are "moderate". I have been trying to understand what that means. One place to start understanding the idea of "moderate Muslim" might be with values. Here is a list of core values that I believe in:

- Honor
- Freedom
- Arts
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Logic
- Compassion

If you think of yourself as a moderate Muslim, do you hold these same values? If not, could you share your core values?

Hello Sir/Ma'am.

Not sure if I you posted in the new comers section and/or if I welcomed you there, so welcome aboard :)

Please forgive me for my post in the first page should it had sounded rude.

I'm not really a religious kinda person, but in concept I follow Islam honestly for myself and the goodness of others.

All of the values mentioned by your kind self are values I believe parts of Islam, except that I'd add science and conduct. The Quraan tells us about the night and day and how they affect our lives, and how to deal with parents in extreme high regard, humble and respect for example. What I care and focus the most, other than the basics, in my way of Islam is to practice good manners/ethics and never do harm to anyone either directly or indirectly.

Prophet Muhammad told us in his final speech before passing away (it has a name that roughly translates to "Farewell Speech") that he was sent to complement good morals and ethics. Many other parts were spoken of like Islam was completed in that speech, but that's another subject.

I hope this adds to your study of Islam :)
 

ametist

Active Member
I assume everyone is on this forum because they want to be :)

ametist, what I'm really asking about is a combination of religion, culture and values, and how those three might work together or not. These three ideas often overlap, but they don't totally overlap and that's where I'm curious.
We are here because we wanted to and because god has made it possible all along. Since we owe our existence to it, you know?
You are asking a very complex question that requires some firm acceptences on very important basics. without those basics biases as far as I follow shall remain and it will let this question end in very shallow grounds. I dont think islamic wisdom is easy and I dont even know what you mean by moderate islam you still dont bother to question yourself first about which biasas might have had you to accept that there is such a thing.
Islamic wisdom is not easy to attain. islamic mystics had to wait at the doors to that wisdom at the verge of giving all they had and their lives willingly just to learn a bit more of god.
 

cocolia42

Active Member
Hi cocolia42,

Thanks for your answer.

When you say "it's not ok for the family to suffer so the woman can work...". How "not ok" is it? Is this just a suggestion, or could the wife be punished for going to work?

When it comes to Sharia, would you feel free to leave Islam, or might you be punished if you did?

Same basic question concerning free speech. Of course I agree the world is a better place when people are respectful of each other. With that said, if someone criticizes or makes jokes about Islam or Muhammad, what is the result? I ask because there have been many worldwide Islamic organizations that have actively promoted blasphemy laws. Organizations such as the OIC and CAIR to name a few. And I'm sure you recall what happened around the world several years ago with the Danish cartoons?

As far as freedom of religion - what is the penalty for apostasy?

As far as what a "moderate Muslim" is, I don't know either, but it's a phrase you hear a lot on the news.

cocolia42 - I'm asking the hard questions because these are the important questions, I thank you for your time and energy.

Perhaps you should seek authentic sources for your information instead of the news. Clearly you have no idea what Sharia is. Let me give you an analogy. I'm American and most westerners are familiar with our judicial system, so I'll use that.

We have a Supreme Court. The Supreme Court Justices use the Constitution to make decisions about what actions are legal or illegal as well as what punishments are legal or illegal. The Justices use their own understanding in applying the Constitution to these rulings. Not all Justices will agree.

Sharia works the same way. A Fiqh Council (fiqh loosely translates to Islamic jurisprudence) would be likened to the Supreme Court. A Fiqhi (or Mufti) would be likened to a Supreme Court Justice. The Qur'an and Sunnah would be likened to the Constitution.

There are very few clearly defined punishments in Sharia law, and those are what we call hadd (plural hudud). They are to be applied in the most extreme cases and they are the most extreme punishments (meaning another punishment cannot be applied for the same crime) and they require clear proof.
For example, you may have heard on the news that the punishment for theft is cutting off the hand. This is a hadd punishment. Not every thief is going to have his hand cut off. If you steal food to feed your family because you're poor, you won't have your hand cut off. But if you violently mug a woman to take her $7, you might. If you receive that punishment, that's the entire punishment. You do not go to jail, you do not pay a fine. That's it.

Everything else is left up to the Fiqh Council. They decide what is legal and they decide what the punishment is for anything illegal.

With the exception of Saudi Arabia, hadd punishments are very rare.

As for the answers to the specific questions you asked, the punishments would be decided by the council. And in most countries, culture applies a great deal to those decisions.

Now, on the issue of Apostasy...
That is a matter in which the ulama (scholars) disagree.

There is a hadith in the Sunnah of the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa salam, where the Prophet says, "Whosoever changes his religion, Kill him."

There are some scholars who take this to mean that apostasy is punishable by death.

Many scholars disagree.

Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, says, "Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." And return [in repentance] to your Lord and submit to Him before the punishment comes upon you; then you will not be helped." (surat az-Zumar:53-54)

So we see that Allah forgives any sin if we repent. Surely someone who turns away from Islam can repent and turn back to Islam (notice the word return in the above verses)

Allah also says, "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." (surat al-Baqarah:256)

So we see that you cannot force someone to believe. So punishing apostasy would be senseless.

Allah also says, "Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." (surat an-Nisa:137

So we see it is possible to believe, then disbelieve, then believe again. This could not be if apostasy is punishable by death.

Allah also says, "So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller." (surat al-Ghashiyah:21-22)

So we see that it is not our concern who accepts Islam and who does not.

Allah also says, "Then is one to whom the evil of his deed has been made attractive so he considers it good [like one rightly guided]? For indeed, Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself perish over them in regret. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do." (surat Fatir:8)

So shall we kill a man for leaving Islam when it was Allah Himself who sent him astray?

Anyway, the point is, Sharia is not a set of specific laws and punishments. There is judgement to be applied. And man is influenced by his community and his culture. So there are really no direct answers for who will be punished for what under Sharia law.

Allah alam
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Perhaps you should seek authentic sources for your information instead of the news. Clearly you have no idea what Sharia is.

Not sure what caused you to mount a personal attack, but it is what it is.

It seems to me that your answers are more theoretical than what's true in practice. Since you live in the West, you could probably become an apostate without much fear for your personal safety. Not all people have that luxury.

So, back to the question of values, you raise some interesting examples!

The Qur'an and Sunnah would be likened to the Constitution.

My understanding is that pure Islam, or perhaps we could say a purely Islamic state, would have Sharia as it's legal system. Isn't that basically correct? When a single set of ideas promotes the idea that it can run all aspects of society, it's known as a "totalitarian ideology". So this can come back to a value question:

Would you value a secular government more than a totalitarian government, or the other way around?
 

cocolia42

Active Member
Not sure what caused you to mount a personal attack, but it is what it is.

It was not my intention to mount a personal attack. I apologize if I've offended you in any way.

It seems to me that your answers are more theoretical than what's true in practice.

Actually, no. What's true in practice in most countries that apply Sharia law is just as I stated. In fact, most countries that implement Sharia law only implement it on matters of personal law (marriage, property rights, etc.). And most countries that implement Sharia law have laws and punishments highly influenced by culture.

Since you live in the West, you could probably become an apostate without much fear for your personal safety. Not all people have that luxury.

This is something that varies from state to state. As I stated, the scholars have differences of opinions on this matter, so some states will execute apostates and some will not. It's a matter of human understanding. Never did Allah command the execution of apostates.

So, back to the question of values, you raise some interesting examples!

My understanding is that pure Islam, or perhaps we could say a purely Islamic state, would have Sharia as it's legal system. Isn't that basically correct? When a single set of ideas promotes the idea that it can run all aspects of society, it's known as a "totalitarian ideology". So this can come back to a value question:

Would you value a secular government more than a totalitarian government, or the other way around?

I believe that Allah knows better than any man so I believe laws based on Allah's commandments are far better. But, Allah's commandments are relatively few. Most laws would be based on man's decisions.

Interestingly enough, I do not value a democratic republic :D
Some things are not right. Just because a group of like-minded people gets together to demand something, doesn't mean it should be given to them. This is how evil creeps in to a society and becomes commonplace.

What I value, as a Muslim, is promoting good and righteous acts and forbidding wrong and evil acts.

Some things I value

  • freedom of religion
  • freedom of speech
  • equal rights
  • right to an education
  • welfare programs to aid the poor, sick, elderly
  • rehabilitation programs
  • eco-friendly activities
  • peaceful negotiations
Some things I DON'T value

  • proselytizing
  • hate speech/bigotry
  • being forced to have my children educated in a system that teaches against my values
  • capitalism
  • bullying/sanctions/terrorism
Does any of this help at all?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I was wondering... why so many Muslims claim not to understand what a moderate Muslim would be?

Is it due to actual lack of understanding, or is it instead a show of respect for other Muslims?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Interestingly enough, I do not value a democratic republic :D
Some things are not right. Just because a group of like-minded people gets together to demand something, doesn't mean it should be given to them. This is how evil creeps in to a society and becomes commonplace.
I find this an especially chilling view. Hopefully others have noted it as well. Exit question: Why should a democratic republic value you as a citizen?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Interestingly enough, I do not value a democratic republic :D
Some things are not right. Just because a group of like-minded people gets together to demand something, doesn't mean it should be given to them. This is how evil creeps in to a society and becomes commonplace.

Democracy is not "rule by majority". Unfortunately, this is a common misconception. It is simply a system where every citizen has their fair share of participation in society's governance. The word is Greek for "rule of the people".

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.

Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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