What are the values of moderate Muslims?

[icehorse]

I've been trying to understand Islam for a couple of years now. I've read one translation of the Quran and skimmed through a few others. I've been on several other Islamic sites. I live in "the West".

What we in the West hear over and over again is that most Muslims in the world are "moderate". I have been trying to understand what that means. One place to start understanding the idea of "moderate Muslim" might be with values. Here is a list of core values that I believe in:

- Honor
- Freedom
- Arts
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Logic
- Compassion

If you think of yourself as a moderate Muslim, do you hold these same values? If not, could you share your core values?

 

[HonestJoe]

In my experience, moderate Muslims are much like moderate Christians. They largely brush over and ignore the difficult questions and controversial issues with their religion, sticking to traditional practice and high principles. Individually, their "core values" as you put it can vary pretty much as widely as anyone else's.

 

[LuisDantas]

In my experience, Muslim culture is all about being honorable in a deep sense that involves having clear, often traditional roles in society and sincerely attempting to be up to the expectations of others.

It has been pointed out by some, including Katzpur and me, that it resembles the Mormon culture in lots of ways.

 

[Union]

I've been trying to understand Islam for a couple of years now. I've read one translation of the Quran and skimmed through a few others. I've been on several other Islamic sites. I live in "the West".

What we in the West hear over and over again is that most Muslims in the world are "moderate". I have been trying to understand what that means. One place to start understanding the idea of "moderate Muslim" might be with values. Here is a list of core values that I believe in:

- Honor
- Freedom
- Arts
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Logic
- Compassion

If you think of yourself as a moderate Muslim, do you hold these same values? If not, could you share your core values?

Will you please first define what is the difference between moderate Muslim and other types of Muslim , at least what you think of it .

 

[LuisDantas]

Will you please first define what is the difference between moderate Muslim and other types of Muslim, at least what you think of it .

Hi, Union. While I am not the thread creator, I have a fairly strong hunch that I know what he meant at least in general terms.

Most people feel a bit confused about a perceived contrast between the obviously peaceful majority of Muslims and the unfortunate violence that attempts to justify itself in the name of Islam.

Given that there are, after all, well over one and a half billion Muslims in the world, we must acknowledge that peaceful conduct is very much to be expect of the typical Muslim. It is ridiculous to deny that, or even to hold significant doubt. Statistical evidence alone is plenty enough to solidly establish that.

At the same time, it is just as much of a fact that there are unfortunate violent acts whose agents seem to be at least personally convinced to be Muslims acting in good faith.

There is an obvious and legitimate need to tell the one group from the other. The peaceful should not be treated as the violent murderer, even if it turns out that the later is justified in some way (a complicated controversy that I would personally prefer to leave for another thread if at all possible).

In part due to our experience with differences of opinion among Christian groups, it is natural to call most Muslims "moderates" and the visible violent minority "radicals", "extremists", or even "fundamentalists". There are many words used for that purpose and I expect that at least a few of them will be offensive, intentionally or otherwise.

I have no doubt whatsoever that most Muslims are very much opposed to violence and feel troubled when it happens in association with appeals to Islam. Neither is there any doubt that unfair judgement, unfair description of complicated, difficult situations and other kinds of injustice that involve the reputation of Islam and of Muslims happen very often.

That, I am sure, is what led the OP to create this thread. He must be aware that Islam is definitely not about violence and wants to learn what it is about.

He asked that initially the Islam DIR and hopefully that thread will go on and offer the witness of Muslims on this important matter. This sister thread offers outsiders such as me the opportunity to speak our own understandings (and hopefully be corrected in our misunderstandings) without bothering that other, more authoritative thread.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have no doubt whatsoever that most Muslims are very much opposed to violence and feel troubled when it happens in association with appeals to Islam.

Is that correct? What is the percentage of Muslims in Brazilian population. We have 15% Muslims. Barring a few who speak (and whose opinions count nothing among the Muslims), most feel happy if people of other religions suffer. They have their clerics trained in Middle-East (Saudi Arabia) who parrot the extremist views. And that is what Muslim children learn from childhood. Alpnabet in Pakistan:

 

[LuisDantas]

Is that correct? What is the percentage of Muslims in Brazilian population.

Not very many. I found no reliable numbers, but it seems safe to say that not even half percent of Brazilians are Muslims.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Is that correct? What is the percentage of Muslims in Brazilian population. We have 15% Muslims. Barring a few who speak (and whose opinions count nothing among the Muslims), most feel happy if people of other religions suffer. They have their clerics trained in Middle-East (Saudi Arabia) who parrot the extremist views. And that is what Muslim children learn from childhood. Alpnabet in Pakistan:

Nice expressions there, specially "parrot".

Where in Saudi Arabia are they trained?

And, please give the source of that Pakistani alphabet table!

 

[Assad91]

I've been trying to understand Islam for a couple of years now. I've read one translation of the Quran and skimmed through a few others. I've been on several other Islamic sites. I live in "the West".

What we in the West hear over and over again is that most Muslims in the world are "moderate". I have been trying to understand what that means. One place to start understanding the idea of "moderate Muslim" might be with values. Here is a list of core values that I believe in:

- Honor
- Freedom
- Arts
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Logic
- Compassion

If you think of yourself as a moderate Muslim, do you hold these same values? If not, could you share your core values?

what do you think?

 

[Assad91]

Talk to immigrant Muslims or foreign Muslims. You'll find many seem to be pretty similar to people in the west.

 

[icehorse]

As Luis said, "peaceful conduct" is the norm. One of my biggest points of confusion has to do with how peaceful Muslims integrate (or perhaps don't integrate), their scripture into their lives. To me there is a clear conflict between being peaceful and in declaring yourself to be a person who follows the Quran. My experience with Muslims is that cherry-picking of the Quran is not allowed. What I *suspect* is that most peaceful Muslims do - in fact - cherry pick their scripture. But they don't feel free to say so.

In comparison, most Christians these days admit freely that they disregard most of the OT.

 

[Union]

As Luis said, "peaceful conduct" is the norm. One of my biggest points of confusion has to do with how peaceful Muslims integrate (or perhaps don't integrate), their scripture into their lives. To me there is a clear conflict between being peaceful and in declaring yourself to be a person who follows the Quran. My experience with Muslims is that cherry-picking of the Quran is not allowed. What I *suspect* is that most peaceful Muslims do - in fact - cherry pick their scripture. But they don't feel free to say so.

In comparison, most Christians these days admit freely that they disregard most of the OT.

Can you lead this opinion of yours by examples .

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm curious. While I personally think it is destructive to give much importance to any scripture, I do not think the Quran is particularly good an explanation for Muslim-related violence, either.

Then again, I can't make much sense of it either, so maybe that is why.

 

[TashaN]

I really don't know how do Muslims in the West behave but speaking for myself living in the middle east, we are just normal people. An American Muslim is just another American. A Brazilian Muslim is just ... another Brazilian. I really don't like it when people think we came from a different planet and that we are weird.

We love and value:
- Honor
- Freedom
- Arts
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Logic
- Compassion

I think it's not fair to judge Islam by the circumstances of the Muslims of today. If you look back in the past you will see that Muslims were the enlightened of that day while Europe was still in it's dark age. Life goes on and everything changed, and we are back to square one, but Muslims want to get up again and contribute to the world as they were doing in the past. Currently we have many political challenges with dictators running the show and using religion for their own means, but everything is changing and Muslims are wiser now. extremism shocked us Muslims as it shocked the rest of the world. It's scary but again, they are a very small percentage compared to more than 1 billion Muslims around the world. They are less than 1% of Muslims.

I think the one who find it really challenging is not me, the one living in the middle east, but it's more difficult for those living for example in America. They see hate and suspicion in people's eyes no matter what they do so they either isolate themselves in small communities to make their life easier, or they hate others back, or fight back peacefully in patience the misconceptions around them and don't stop mixing with non-Muslims despite how they view them. Most of people just want to go to their work everyday, go back home and watch their favorite show, visit friends, etc.

What you see as alien is not something related to Islam, but something related to culture. Some Muslims mix Islam with culture, that's true, but many others don't. I'm sure that there are ALOT of Muslims whom you didn't caught by your radar simply because they talk the way you do, wear the way you do, work the way you do, think the way you do, so they go unnoticed, and you will only recognize as Muslims those who like to be vocal about it or those who wear in a special way. So you will all miss a great deal of what is a Muslim like because you are looking and noticing those who don't look like you. you are not looking to the Muslim working next to your desk, you are looking down out of your window to the one who *look* like a Muslim in your perception. Think about it.


Peace.

 

[icehorse]

Thanks to everyone for their responses! TashaN, let me ask you, how should I view the Quran? I'm told that the Quran is central to Islam and that it is perfect, final, and unalterable. Do you follow the Quran entirely, or do you pick and choose only certain verses? Or perhaps the Quran does not have any role in your life?

How do you think Muslims living in the west would answer these questions?

 

[icehorse]

Can you lead this opinion of yours by examples .

Union,

As Luis said, statistically speaking we must agree that most Muslims are peaceful. But the Quran is not a peaceful book. So there is a built-in conflict here. This is why it is my *opinion* that most Muslims don't follow the Quran to any great degree.

 

[Union]

Union,

As Luis said, statistically speaking we must agree that most Muslims are peaceful. But the Quran is not a peaceful book. So there is a built-in conflict here. This is why it is my *opinion* that most Muslims don't follow the Quran to any great degree.

That is why I was asking you examples from the Qur'an where it proves that it is not peaceful book .

 

[icehorse]

Union,

I'm sure we've both engaged in similar conversations with others in the past. Let me see if I can save us both some time:

I read the translation of the Quran known as "King Fahd Complex", translated by Al-Hilali and Khan. I believe that this is the translation that has been printed and distributed throughout the world over 250 million times. I also cross-checked this version with two other versions, and the three seemed substantially the same.

As I read the book I took extensive notes. I have also seen published lists that have enumerated the Quran criticizing non-believers over 500 times. Just a short summary would include the Quran instructing Muslims that non-believers will always lie to Muslims. Non-believers should never be trusted or befriended. Non-believers will try to lie to Allah. Non-believers must either be converted to Islam or subdued. Muslims must fight until there is no disbelief in the world (2:193). Muslims must do Jihad even if they don't want to (2:216, 2:243...). Non-believers will always try to corrupt Muslims, they will try to harm you, hatred will come from their mouths (3:118). Non-believers love your pain and hate your joy (3:120). The list goes on and on.

Sometimes I have been told that I am misunderstanding the Quran. But the Quran tells me that it (the Quran), is clear, complete, un-corruptible and understandable.

 

[Union]

Union,

I'm sure we've both engaged in similar conversations with others in the past. Let me see if I can save us both some time:

I read the translation of the Quran known as "King Fahd Complex", translated by Al-Hilali and Khan. I believe that this is the translation that has been printed and distributed throughout the world over 250 million times. I also cross-checked this version with two other versions, and the three seemed substantially the same.

As I read the book I took extensive notes. I have also seen published lists that have enumerated the Quran criticizing non-believers over 500 times. Just a short summary would include the Quran instructing Muslims that non-believers will always lie to Muslims. Non-believers should never be trusted or befriended. Non-believers will try to lie to Allah. Non-believers must either be converted to Islam or subdued. Muslims must fight until there is no disbelief in the world (2:193). Muslims must do Jihad even if they don't want to (2:216, 2:243...). Non-believers will always try to corrupt Muslims, they will try to harm you, hatred will come from their mouths (3:118). Non-believers love your pain and hate your joy (3:120). The list goes on and on.

Sometimes I have been told that I am misunderstanding the Quran. But the Quran tells me that it (the Quran), is clear, complete, un-corruptible and understandable.

Hi Icehorse . It is really disappointing to see you 'cherry-picking' the Qur'anic verses without reading their context in full . None of the verses you mentioned or anywhere in the Qur'an suggest any violence or fight for nothing . All the verses related to Jihad/Qital are for the measure against the oppressors , evils and wrong-doers . It never prescribed to break the peace of the society or to force to convert anyone . For example you first pick , 2:193 , read it with context :

[002:190] Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.
[002:191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
[002:192] But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[002:193] And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

You clearly see the bold parts of the verses explain it all . Fighting against the oppressors and injustice not against the peaceful people . Again then if oppressors stop oppression , there is not fight rather a peace treaty is prescribed in Qur'an .

If you look at all other verses which believed to be violent and non-peaceful with its context , you will find Almighty GOD prescribed those for reasons and for the safety of soceity .

Hopefully that clears the air .

 

[Union]

[002:216] Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.
[002:217] They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

[003:118] O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
[003:119] Ah! ye are those who love them, but they love you not,- though ye believe in the whole of the Book. When they meet you, they say, "We believe": But when they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say: "Perish in you rage; God knoweth well all the secrets of the heart."
[003:120] If aught that is good befalls you, it grieves them; but if some misfortune overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if ye are constant and do right, not the least harm will their cunning do to you; for God Compasseth round about all that they do.